# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1142 "2017-11-30T20:47:23Z")
The Onion’s take. [Al Franken Tearfully Announces Intention To Step Down From Role As Harasser Of Women](https://politics.theonion.com/al-franken-tearfully-announces-intention-to-step-down-f-1820801727) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON—Amid mounting sexual misconduct allegations against the Minnesota senator, Al Franken tearfully announced to reporters Tuesday his intention to step down from his role as a harasser of women. “I’ve discussed it with my family and, sadly, I’ve come to the conclusion that the best course of action is for me to resign as a groper of women,” said Franken, adding that as much as he’d like to continue making unwanted sexual advances, he will vacate the position effective immediately. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1143 "2017-11-30T20:48:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Sorry, I had those confused. My bad. > > I don’t know anything about the reaction to the assault allegations. And even with the Access Hollywood tape, how many of them wound up falling into line? How many of them still opposed Trump, say, the week before the election? My recollection is that their opposition withered and disappeared in the same way that the #neverTrump politicians did. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1144 "2017-11-30T20:49:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some men like to grope surreptitiously when they get a chance. … That’s true. Most of us have known, or known of, people who touch others without their consent, and are revoltingly pleased with themselves for doing so. Odd that if Franken is such a person, there have only been five accusations over a 17-year period.\* If he’s a guy who likes to grope, would he really have groped so seldom? This is one of the factors that lead me to want a more comprehensive investigation to take place. Let the women be enabled to tell their stories in full, in an official setting such as a Senate Ethics Committee hearing. Let them speak out and provide any supportive details that they can recall. Let them answer questions about what they experienced (in a private hearing, if they prefer–but on the record). Let them be heard. > [@Pantastic](#): > > The lengths people will go through to defend this sort of slimy behavior is amazing. What I’m seeing from those who warn against the consequences of adopting an “accusation = guilt = removal from office” standard, is _not_ that slimy behavior is defensible. Instead, it’s doubt that there is reasonably-credible evidence that slimy behavior occurred–combined with a call for a full investigation. Again: let the accusers be heard, in an official setting, as befits their dignity. \*2003 is the earliest date given by any of the five accusers. [http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/politics/al-franken-groping-allegation/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/politics/al-franken-groping-allegation/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1145 "2017-11-30T20:49:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > He makes too much false equivalence. > > That is implying that the things that are alleged against Franken is as bad as that against trump, and that against conyers is as bad as Moore. I disagree. > > Franken resigning is not going to make any difference of powerful men abusing women under their power. It’s not going to stop the Wendy’s GM from molesting the minimum wage workers making sandwiches. It is not going to make them suddenly realize that their actions are harmful and wrong, and get them to stop out of empathy for the women they are hurting. It is also not going to make them stop supporting people like Roy Moore, as you aren’t very well going to be upset with a DA in his 30’s hitting on 14 year old girls in the mall, when you are a GM in your 40’s and grab the ass of your underage employees every damn day. > > If Trump resigned and Moore dropped out, then I could see an argument that Franken should also resign (I’m pretty much on with Conyers, if what is said against him is true, he knowingly crossed many lines.), but as long as their tactic is to deny and threaten accusers, and our tactic is to immediately resign to any accusation, then the people in positions of power will be only those who deny and threaten, and anyone who tries to make things right will be unable to, as they will no longer have that power. > > I am a bit of an outlier on this, but I do believe in forgiveness. There are lines that can be crossed that are “unforgivable”, but to me, that line is a refusal to apologize. I would even “forgive” (for what that’s worth) trump and moore for their actions, if they owned up to them, and showed how they would make up for them, and most importantly, how they would no longer do those offending actions in the future. I feel Franken has cleared that bar quite easily, not so much on Conyers, but for Trump and Moore, they refuse to even acknowledge the harm they did, and continue to do harm with not just their threats against women who have come forward, but their creation of an environment where people like O’keef try to create false accusations just to discredit the plausible ones. > > Anyway, I’m not saying that Franken shouldn’t step down, and in a perfect world where all our statesmen are perfect people above any scandal, he should. In a world like we have, where the allegations against him are not of someone who abused their power for sexual gratification or the sadistic pleasure that some get from harming others, but rather, at most, bad judgement, for which he has apologized and has taken steps to make amends, and the credible allegations against those who are not going to step down, who are going to get elected are of people who are abusing their power for sexual gratification and bullying, and have flat out called the accusers liars, and have used their positions to threaten them, it is not those who acknowledge their mistakes and try to repair the damage their mistakes did that we should be running out of public life. He’s talking about perception – that most people don’t pay close attention to this sort of stuff (having busy lives to go about), and thus it’s not terribly hard to convince lots of them that both parties are the same on this issue if they both have abusers that are tolerated. In order to combat that, as a party, we need a very bright and clear line – credible allegations of harassment and abuse. We won’t tolerate harassers and abusers in our ranks (or we shouldn’t); they (the GOP) do and they will. We could be the party that very, very clearly stands against harassment and abuse in all forms, and paint the Republicans as the party of harassment and abuse. It wouldn’t work for everyone, quite obviously, but it would avoid that situation in which busy voters can be convinced that both parties are the same on sexual harassment and sexual abuse. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1146 "2017-11-30T20:51:25Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Franken resigning is not going to make any difference of powerful men abusing women under their power. I picked this one bit out of your post because I strongly disagree. Franken’s resignation will, at least, send a strong signal to the rest of Congress. No, it might not do much for Wendy’s CEO, but there are other way to addressing that. But when there are credible claims against someone, and no significant repercussions ensue, then that sends a strong signal to other guys out there. It’s about time that folks (mostly men) started knowing there is a line that cannot be crossed without there being real consequences. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1147 "2017-11-30T20:53:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When taking a picture, don’t touch boob or butt. That’s puritanical? Sounds like simple, common sense to me… Well, which picture are we talking about, here? The one that is total and irrefutable proof, or the other one, the absolute proof? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1148 "2017-11-30T20:56:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What I fear we get out of this situation is that men realize they should be treating women as minefields, rather than people. Nah. I think the men who’ve been treating women as people all along won’t have much of a problem. Now the men who’ve been treating women like objects might start treating them as minefields, but that would be a step in the right direction. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1149 "2017-11-30T20:57:30Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Well, that’s what you posted. Maybe you should post whatever it is that you want to argue instead of posting that if more witnesses come forward it proves that the groping was unintentional. The lengths people will go through to defend this sort of slimy behavior is amazing. That is still not what I said. The lengths that some will go to to distort the words of others in order to score “points” is quite amazing. > [@Pantastic](#): > > If you can’t figure out how to not grope women, then it’s a good thing if you start treating their bodies like minefields instead of squeeze toys. Grabbing butts while taking a picture is something that SHOULD make you feel like you’re walking into a minefield. It also means that there is no time when a man can ever be in a position where a woman could make an allegation against them. So, no more hugging in photographs. Did you think that it was wrong that Franken hugged these women for the photos they asked to take with him? Well, you are arguing that it was. That it is never okay to touch a a woman in any way, even with their permission, as it is possible that they may take it the wrong way. They will also need to not be promoted into positions where they would need to work closely and unsupervised with a man, as it is possible that there could be allegations there. This witch hunt may hurt some individual men, mostly men who actually do realize that their actions, intentional or not, did offend and harm women, but it is not going to harm the bosses who grab ass every day. It’s not going to get harassers out of the republican party, and it’s not going to get the republican party out of power. It is going to hurt the men who don’t mean to hurt women, and it is going to hurt women as they are viewed as a danger to any man’s career. It’s not going to actually do anything to stop the sexual harassment that goes on every day. Is it sexual harassment you want to have reduced and hopefully eliminated, or is it vengeance you want to get on those who have been accused? Your games may feed your recreational outrage, but they do nothing to address, much less solve, the actual problems. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right now, far too many men feel and act, to some degree, like women in the workplace are objects for their pleasure and amusement. Like how they wear their hair, or what clothes they wear, or what makeup they use, or who they are dating, or other personal details, are anyone’s business but their own. > > If that’s how those men relate to and see women, then it’s far better if they see women in the workplace as minefields than the status quo. I think there’s a great chance that, just as we had (and still have!) to wait for old racists to die to make real progress on race, we might have to wait for old sexists and harassers and misogynists to die to make real progress on attitudes towards sexual misconduct, but at least we should do our utmost to protect women and hold abusers accountable in the meantime. If women are viewed as minefields, they will be shut out of many opportunities for advancement in their careers. If men are afraid of having a closed door meeting with a woman, then they will not be promoted to positions where that is necessary. Women will not be allowed to work one on one with a man. The accommodation required to ensure that there are always witnesses to all interactions of a man and a woman will mean that women lose out. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1150 "2017-11-30T20:57:51Z")
Not all butt or breast/chest touches are sexual. Why is it so hard for people to accept that the world isn’t black and white? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1151 "2017-11-30T20:59:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, which picture are we talking about, here? The one that is total and irrefutable proof, or the other one, the absolute proof? No, the other one. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1152 "2017-11-30T21:01:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In order to combat that, as a party, we need a very bright and clear line – credible allegations of harassment and abuse. We won’t tolerate harassers and abusers in our ranks (or we shouldn’t); they (the GOP) do and they will. We could be the party that very, very clearly stands against harassment and abuse in all forms, and paint the Republicans as the party of harassment and abuse. The Democratic Party already stands for these things. Conyers is being asked to resign, and Franken will be investigated. This is an investigation he is welcoming. On the other hand, Moore is about to win because Alabama’s Republicans have already forgiven his ephebophilia and sexual assault and it only took a week or two for Republicans to forgive Trump. In the end, it doesn’t really matter what stance is taken now anyway. The best thing you can do is make sure there is a drip-drip of harassment claims a week or so before election day and to make attack adds with your Republican opponent lecherously eyeing little girls. Democrats are too strategically stupid and into “going high” to do any of this of course, and that is why sexual harassment is a Republican win. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1153 "2017-11-30T21:03:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > He makes too much false equivalence. … That is implying that the things that are alleged against Franken is as bad as that against trump, and that against conyers is as bad as Moore. I disagree. > > Franken resigning is not going to make any difference of powerful men abusing women under their power… It is also not going to make them stop supporting people like Roy Moore, … > > In a world like we have, where the allegations against him are not of someone who abused their power for sexual gratification or the sadistic pleasure that some get from harming others, but rather, at most, bad judgement, for which he has apologized and has taken steps to make amends, and the credible allegations against those who are not going to step down, who are going to get elected are of people who are abusing their power for sexual gratification and bullying, and have flat out called the accusers liars, and have used their positions to threaten them, it is not those who acknowledge their mistakes and try to repair the damage their mistakes did that we should be running out of public life. I agree with your entire well-argued post (excerpted here). Those Democrats who are certain that acting on the ‘accusation = guilt’ principle will bring the party respect and honor, are (in my opinion) not thinking this through completely. Those on the right, of course, will only laugh at Dems for acting on this purity/“zero tolerance” idea. They will consider Dems to have demonstrated a new low in weakness and stupidity. And they will gleefully make use of the new tool the Democrats have handed them: anyone who stands in their way can now be removed, merely by accusation. And quite frankly, independents will laugh, too. Or at least hold Democrats in contempt. The standard should _not_ be ‘We are the most pure’ or ‘We remove our people if they are accused.’ The standard should be: ‘We stand for due process and rule of law; accusers will be heard out fairly and their accusations fully investigated.’ ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1154 "2017-11-30T21:05:45Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I agree with your entire well-argued post (excerpted here). > > Those Democrats who are certain that acting on the ‘accusation = guilt’ principle will bring the party respect and honor, are (in my opinion) not thinking this through completely. > > Those on the right, of course, will only laugh at Dems for acting on this purity/“zero tolerance” idea. They will consider Dems to have demonstrated a new low in weakness and stupidity. And they will gleefully make use of the new tool the Democrats have handed them: anyone who stands in their way can now be removed, merely by accusation. > > And quite frankly, independents will laugh, too. Or at least hold Democrats in contempt. > > The standard should _not_ be ‘We are the most pure’ or ‘We remove our people if they are accused.’ > > The standard should be: ‘We stand for due process and rule of law; accusers will be heard out fairly and their accusations fully investigated.’ Due process? That’s an antiquated notion it appears. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1155 "2017-11-30T21:08:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Due process? That’s an antiquated notion it appears. We should work to see it revived. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1156 "2017-11-30T21:11:48Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That is still not what I said. The lengths that some will go to to distort the words of others in order to score “points” is quite amazing. I’m not distorting your words. You literally stated that if another, male victim accused him of the same behavior, you’d find it more likely that the behavior was unintentional. Again, that’s what YOU said, I’m not twisting it. > [@](#): > > It also means that there is no time when a man can ever be in a position where a woman could make an allegation against them. It means that a person in general shouldn’t fondle unwilling victims while taking pictures, and stage photos of themselves fondling unwilling victims while they’re asleep, and other things of that nature. > [@](#): > > So, no more hugging in photographs. Did you think that it was wrong that Franken hugged these women for the photos they asked to take with him? Well, you are arguing that it was. That it is never okay to touch a a woman in any way, even with their permission, as it is possible that they may take it the wrong way. It’s incredibly ironic that you accuse me of twisting your words for taking what you said at face value, but invent an absurd argument and claim that I’m making it. I’ve never made that argument or anything close to it. > [@](#): > > This witch hunt What witch hunt? Al Franken has a photograph that he’s admitted was awful and numerous accusers who have people backing that they discussed the incident at the time. And the terrible consequence for him is that… he’s being investigated exactly like he requested. How exactly is that a ‘witch hunt’? It’s not ‘guilty until proven innocent’, it doesn’t rely on a single accusation, there’s even photographic evidence. > [@](#): > > It is going to hurt the men who don’t mean to hurt women, When you get to the point of unwanted groping, whether you meant for it to hurt women or not is really irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1157 "2017-11-30T21:32:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When taking a picture, don’t touch boob or butt. That’s puritanical? Sounds like simple, common sense to me. > > Treat a woman like you would a man. Men are quite deft at avoiding inappropriate sexual contact with other men. And if accidents happen, apologies fly faster than in insults at a poker game. It’s not rocket science. When taking a picture, don’t make any physical contact, you mean? He hugged alot of people. People wanted him to hug them. The takeaway from this is that there will be no more hugging in photographs with celebrities or politicians. Not a big thing, but, IMHO, it doesn’t really improve anything either. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He’s talking about perception – that most people don’t pay close attention to this sort of stuff (having busy lives to go about), and thus it’s not terribly hard to convince lots of them that both parties are the same on this issue if they both have abusers that are tolerated. > > In order to combat that, as a party, we need a very bright and clear line – credible allegations of harassment and abuse. We won’t tolerate harassers and abusers in our ranks (or we shouldn’t); they (the GOP) do and they will. We could be the party that very, very clearly stands against harassment and abuse in all forms, and paint the Republicans as the party of harassment and abuse. > > It wouldn’t work for everyone, quite obviously, but it would avoid that situation in which busy voters can be convinced that both parties are the same on sexual harassment and sexual abuse. I don’t know that many people would be paying close attention to this stuff if Franken did resign. That in fact, means that the busy person thinks that the democrats are worse. The stuff that the republicans did wasn’t so bad it required resigning, but the stuff the dems did was so heinous, even their own party called for them to leave public life forever. I don’t think that many busy voters would see it as a bright and clear line that is being followed, they’d just see more dems being vilified by their own party, and perceive the dems as more vile. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I picked this one bit out of your post because I strongly disagree. Franken’s resignation will, at least, send a strong signal to the rest of Congress. No, it might not do much for Wendy’s CEO, but there are other way to addressing that. > > But when there are credible claims against someone, and no significant repercussions ensue, then that sends a strong signal to other guys out there. It’s about time that folks (mostly men) started knowing there is a line that cannot be crossed without there being real consequences. I don’t see what message it sends to congress. If something comes of the settlements and the lengthy and stupid process required to file a harassment claim, that could send a message, but Franken resigning, I don’t know. I mean, there are no repercussions against trump or Moore, so all that I get from that is that you don’t dare admit any wrongdoing, you attack your accusers as liars, and you threaten them with lawsuits. That’s the message that I see sent to congress upon franken’s resignation. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Nah. I think the men who’ve been treating women as people all along won’t have much of a problem. > > Now the men who’ve been treating women like objects might start treating them as minefields, but that would be a step in the right direction. 🙂 I think that there are many men in the middle. Men who don’t think that they have done anything wrong, but given that you don’t have to think or know that you did something wrong in order to have done something that gets you pilloried is going to cause them to be more cautious. And not cautious in a good way, in thinking about their actions and words, but cautious in a way that makes sure that there isn’t a problem in the first place. Also, the fear of false accusation is a real one. I am pretty sure that I have never intentionally done anything sexually to any woman that didn’t want it. That doesn’t mean that somewhere in my life, I have not unintentionally done something that may have caused offense. If I were to learn about that, then I would do what I could to make amends and prevent it from happening again. If I know that there is no amends to be made, then I am not going to allow the potential for that situation to arise. I know that there are women I have angered in the past. I’ve let a number of employees go, and disciplined many more. All it takes is one of these women to decide to come out with an accusation, and I could be toast, someone could ruin my life due to a misunderstanding of intent, or even by a completely fabricated story. The only way to prevent that is to make sure that no woman ever has any way of claiming anything against you, and in order to do that, women will need to be always treated as suspect. I don’t see how that is going to be good for anyone. We are seeing the end of the low hanging fruit, where the man who is accused looks at his behavior, and tries to see how it was offensive, and we are going to see instead a fight for life for every one of the accused. Deny, deny, deny. That’s the only way to win here. Whether or not you know the allegations are true, the first thing that should be released is that the accuser is a liar. Then you threaten them with libel. If your employer fires you for the allegations, then that is harm that has been caused, and then they have the burden of proving your actions and intent to a court. If you have admitted and apologized for your actions, you’re done for. If you accuse them of lying, and sue them for causing harm, you’ll be in the clear. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1158 "2017-11-30T21:52:38Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I’m not distorting your words. You literally stated that if another, male victim accused him of the same behavior, you’d find it more likely that the behavior was unintentional. Again, that’s what YOU said, I’m not twisting it. You have finally actually stated what I did state, so congrats. You still have entirely the wrong takeaway. The point is, is that if there were a man that came out and said, “You know, Franken grabbed my butt, too.” then that would lead me to believe that the inappropriate contact of the women was not intentional. > [@](#): > > It means that a person in general shouldn’t fondle unwilling victims while taking pictures, and stage photos of themselves fondling unwilling victims while they’re asleep, and other things of that nature. It also mean that a person should never put themselves in any position where any sort of contact _could_ occur, leading to women being shut out of things that are available to them now. I guarantee that we will not be seeing any politicians hugging people to pose for a picture again. No matter how much the person may want a pic with them hugging their favorite politician or celebrity, the answer will be “No.” A big deal, not so much, but it’s not the last thing we will be giving up. > [@](#): > > It’s incredibly ironic that you accuse me of twisting your words for taking what you said at face value, but invent an absurd argument and claim that I’m making it. I’ve never made that argument or anything close to it. Okay, I apologize, I did not mean to twist your words. Are you saying that it is perfectly fine to continue hugging to pose for a picture, or not? I may have misunderstood. > [@](#): > > What witch hunt? Al Franken has a photograph that he’s admitted was awful and numerous accusers who have people backing that they discussed the incident at the time. And the terrible consequence for him is that… he’s being investigated exactly like he requested. How exactly is that a ‘witch hunt’? It’s not ‘guilty until proven innocent’, it doesn’t rely on a single accusation, there’s even photographic evidence. The witch hunt that we are talking about right now. Are you talking about the photograph in which the subject of the photo has accepted his apology, but that you refuse to? > [@](#): > > When you get to the point of unwanted groping, whether you meant for it to hurt women or not is really irrelevant. And when you get to the point of simply an accusation of unwanted groping is enough to ruin someone’s life, and any misunderstanding or miscommunication is an unforgivable sin, it’s not really relevant, both men and women will be worse off. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1159 "2017-11-30T21:56:00Z")
k9: The message it sends to Congress is: \*Grope or otherwise sexual harass someone and you’re out. \* Now, if you’re going to argue that “Moore hasn’t been kicked out”, then go ahead and add to the above: _So you need to ask yourself if you feel lucky. Well, do you, punk?_ ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1160 "2017-11-30T21:59:03Z")
Here’s a complicated situation: suppose [the spouse of a politician is an egregious abuser](https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/11/30/four-men-allege-sexual-misconduct-senate-president-husband/40ABgRdciNITE1kAYrWsUN/story.html). The politician is not a party to any of this. But on the other hand, being the guy’s spouse gives considerable political power. (The politician had previously promised to isolate his spouse from politics, but this did not happen.) What’s the consequence here, and for who? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1161 "2017-11-30T21:59:47Z")
No minefield is needed for men who don’t see women as objects for their pleasure or amusement. It’s really easy to not grope, harass, or assault women. If you’re on a date and you lean in for a kiss, that’s okay. If you’re in the office, it’s not. If you’re in a meet and greet, shake hands and, for pictures, you can put your arm around their shoulders. But no butt, boob, or crotch. It really isn’t that hard. Pretty damn easy, in fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=59)