# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/121 "2017-11-16T18:59:37Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Perhaps progressives shouldn’t run plays from the Roy Moore defense playbook. Huh? Roy Moore is currently running for office. The election is in less than a month. Franken is not currently running for office. His current term in office ends in 2021. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/122 "2017-11-16T18:59:59Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > So do you think I’m hypocritical? > > Do you think it’s disingenuous for me to claim to see a meaningful distinction between multiple substantiated allegations from women with no obvious motivation to lie and one unsubstantiated allegation from a woman with such an obvious motive? That doesn’t seem like an intellectually defensible position to you? Shame on you for this argument. A woman’s past or present political affiliations have nothing to do with their credibility. Shame on you and anyone else using this argument as reason to cast doubt on her credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/123 "2017-11-16T19:00:07Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What was the malicious intent? Well, if you read the article, it’s obvious: > [@](#): > > Other than our dialogue on stage, I never had a voluntary conversation with Al Franken again. I avoided him as much as possible and made sure I was never alone with him again for the rest of the tour. > > Franken repaid me with petty insults, including drawing devil horns on at least one of the headshots I was autographing for the troops. > > But he didn’t stop there. > > I couldn’t believe it. He groped me, without my consent, while I was asleep. > > I felt violated all over again. Embarrassed. Belittled. Humiliated. > > How dare anyone grab my breasts like this and think it’s funny? > [@](#): > > You forcibly kissed me without my consent, grabbed my breasts while I was sleeping and had someone take a photo of you doing it, knowing I would see it later, and be ashamed. But maybe she’s overreacting, or hyping this up for the benefit of conservatives? Well, let me set a ground rule: I don’t think that’s it’s a stretch to say that a person doing something that “isn’t funny” is “completely inappropriate”, that is “obvious” that the victim and “millions of other women would feel violated by it” is pretty obviously acting with malicious intent. With that in mind, what does Al Franken say about the picture? > [@Al Franken](#): > > For instance, that picture. I don’t know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn’t matter. There’s no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn’t funny. It’s completely inappropriate. It’s obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what’s more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Who has done that in this thread? For one, the person denying the obvious malicious intent involved when a man who had been harassing a woman after being rebuffed by her took “completely inappropriate” pictures of her that it’s obvious to him that she would feel violated by. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/124 "2017-11-16T19:00:39Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK then, edit it the way you think I should have edited it, to show how I was ‘selective.’ > > Because the only damn way I was ‘selective’ was to not quote half the damn article. We’ve got rules against that. Can’t help. The quote is selective regardless. Her article alleged two incidents. She was kissed and groped. She describes the kissing episode and its aftermath at some length, and then says that’s not all he did and goes on to describe him groping her. The last sentence of the kissing part was about him repaying her with petty insults, and by beginning your quote with that sentence you made it appear that the “that’s not all” was a reference to that one sentence. A fuller quote would allow for the more likely interpretation that the “that’s not all” was referring to the kissing, and not to the final sentence about petty insults. The context of all this is that it’s not at all clear that she was interpreting his “groping” as an insult aimed at her, but more likely as something more analogous to the kissing. But I don’t think this is worth arguing about further. (She was sleeping at the time anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/125 "2017-11-16T19:02:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? > > Roy Moore is currently running for office. The election is in less than a month. > > Franken is not currently running for office. His current term in office ends in 2021. Then why did you raise the timing in your previous post? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/126 "2017-11-16T19:04:41Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK then, edit it the way you think I should have edited it, to show how I was ‘selective.’ > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can’t help. The quote is selective regardless. Uhhuh. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/127 "2017-11-16T19:05:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shame on you for this argument. A woman’s past or present political affiliations have nothing to do with their credibility. Shame on you and anyone else using this argument as reason to cast doubt on her credibility. Of course political affiliation has a lot to do with accusations against political figures. This should be obvious. It is obvious, in fact. That’s not to say such accusations should be dismissed. But to insist that political affiliation has zero bearing and should not be considered at all is ridiculous. This “shame on you” attempt at petty intimidation is silly. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/128 "2017-11-16T19:05:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shame on you for this argument. A woman’s past or present political affiliations have nothing to do with their credibility. Shame on you and anyone else using this argument as reason to cast doubt on her credibility. I agree with you. Franken’s behavior was shitty and proof that this is not a partisan issue, men of all political stripes have behaved like creeps. To not own up to that and call out creep behavior when it happens is to be part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/129 "2017-11-16T19:07:14Z")
FWIW: > [@](#): > > **Woman who accused Franken says she accepts his apology** > > The woman who accused Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) of sexual misconduct said Thursday she accepts his apology. > > “The apology, sure I accept it, yes. People make mistakes and of course he knew he made a mistake,” she said. “So yes I do accept that apology.” > > She said it’s up to Congress whether they want to have an ethics investigation into Franken’s behavior. > > “There’s no reason why I shouldn’t accept his apology,” she said. > > She said she wasn’t “looking for anything” when she shared her story. > > SOURCE: [http://thehill.com/homenews/news/360709-woman-who-accused-franken-says-she-accepts-his-apology](http://thehill.com/homenews/news/360709-woman-who-accused-franken-says-she-accepts-his-apology) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/130 "2017-11-16T19:08:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Then why did you raise the timing in your previous post? Because (for now) it smells like a smoke screen for Roy Moore and typical conservative “whataboutism”. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/131 "2017-11-16T19:10:15Z")
Disclaimer: liberal, like Franken. But I think I’ve been consistent. I will be interested in seeing what the final shake out is WRT “sexual harassment”. I feel that absent egregious factors, an isolated decades in the past should not define how an otherwise upstanding person is judged today. We are a sexual species. What is within the conceivable range of acceptable or excusable in a bar, is clearly different than in a professional workplace. Or the age/power of the respective parties. Isolated event vs pattern of behavior. Hypocrisy might also be relevant - such as engaging in homosexual activity while publicly condemning same. How the person responds to the accusations is also relevant in assessing their present character. Moreover, while not “blaming the victim”, I believe that memories are often terribly unreliable. I’ll be happy if we truly see some changes in behavioral norms as the result of this current climate. And I’m thrilled to see truly bad actors bear consequences. But I hope that every instance of poor judgment ought not have outsized repercussions years down the road. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/132 "2017-11-16T19:12:35Z")
Roy Moore is going to speak soon, right now, they are busy praying. No sign of a smiting. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/133 "2017-11-16T19:16:53Z")
I’d hate to see the Dems feel compelled to make an example of one of their own for a relatively minor transgression whilst the shameless Republicans feel no such compulsion. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/134 "2017-11-16T19:18:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shame on you for this argument. A woman’s past or present political affiliations have nothing to do with their credibility. Shame on you and anyone else using this argument as reason to cast doubt on her credibility. If an argument is poor or flawed, that’s fair game to call it out. Shaming other posters however personalizes the argument. Please do not personalize your arguments in this fashion. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/135 "2017-11-16T19:23:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I guess I missed it. What is her motive? She has been a frequent guest on Sean Hannity’s show. About an hour ago I found some cites on Google of her identifying as a Tea Party supporter and saying she would like to “kick Obama’s ass”, but now all the search results are pointing to stories about today’s allegations. On the fifth page down I found [this](http://www.wnd.com/2011/03/279021/) example of her promoting birtherism on Hannity’s show. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/136 "2017-11-16T19:24:45Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I’d hate to see the Dems feel compelled to make an example of one of their own for a relatively minor transgression whilst the shameless Republicans feel no such compulsion. If there’s a easy-to-understand standard that can be applied consistently besides “has/hasn’t committed sexual assault/harassment,” I’m all ears. But in the absence of such a standard, that’s where we’ve got to draw the line. It’s probably where it should be drawn, period. Even when one of my favorite politicians falls on the wrong side of it. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/137 "2017-11-16T19:26:33Z")
you know ive always got the impression that franken was like most comics somewhat funny but a major dick he just was more intellectual tham most and this hasn’t changed my mind … ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/138 "2017-11-16T19:26:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > For #1, unless he actually did fondle her, it is hard to get overly fussed about it. Al Franken strongly disagrees with you on this. He actually says that there’s no excuse for the pciture, that he’s disgusted with himself for taking it, and that it’s obvious millions of women would feel violated by it. I think I’ll take the accused’s side in this instance! "For instance, that picture. I don’t know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn’t matter. There’s no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn’t funny. It’s completely inappropriate. It’s obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what’s more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me. > [@](#): > > I know it is popular to #believethewoman but seems to me you should need more than the above to end someone’s career. Currently we have a he said/she said. No we don’t. We have a ‘she said, he didn’t disagree with her about the kiss, and he also said the photograph was wildly inappropriate’. That’s a ‘she said, he partially agreed and didn’t disagree with anything she said’. > [@treis](#): > > The way she exaggerates doesn’t sit well with me. She says that he groped her and kissed her without consent. Her story and the picture contradict that. She says she said “Ok” to the kiss after he badgered her into it. Obviously badgering someone into kissing you is clearly wrong, but it’s also clearly different than kissing someone without their consent. Getting consent for a stage kiss is not the same thing as consent for shoving your tongue into their mouth. He lacked any actual consent for what he did. And as for the rest, see his own description of the picture. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Are we to be similarly outraged by millions of photos taken by college students, [like these](https://www.google.com/search?q=passed+out+pictures&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLwPLCzcPXAhWIgVQKHTVrDHsQ_AUICigB&biw=1324&bih=969)? Drunk college students engage in all kinds of awful behavior, I can’t believe someone would argue ‘drunk college students do this, so clearly it’s OK’ in general. But especially when we’re talking about not just a grown man, but a US Senator - I really don’t think “Only does stuff as bad as drunk college students do” is a good standard of behavior. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/139 "2017-11-16T19:27:36Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Of course political affiliation has a lot to do with accusations against political figures. This should be obvious. It is obvious, in fact. > > That’s not to say such accusations should be dismissed. But to insist that political affiliation has zero bearing and should not be considered at all is ridiculous. > > This “shame on you” attempt at petty intimidation is silly. No, it’s not obvious. Credibility for allegations of personal misbehavior is (or should be) based on honesty, plausibility, etc. Not who one associates with, or one’s political beliefs. A liberal accusing a conservative, or vice versa, is no more or less credible than a liberal accusing a liberal, or conservative accusing a conservative. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/140 "2017-11-16T19:28:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If an argument is poor or flawed, that’s fair game to call it out. Shaming other posters however personalizes the argument. Please do not personalize your arguments in this fashion. > > [/moderating] Understood. I’ll leave out the “shame on you” outside of the Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=8)