# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1422 "2017-12-08T10:21:10Z")
I’m 99% certain the delay is for the Minnesota governor to choose the replacement, so the state doesn’t go a day without a Senator. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1423 "2017-12-08T11:20:56Z")
I thought Franken’s final speech was pretty shitty and mostly self-serving, if anyone’s interested. > **[Al Franken's selfish, damaging resignation speech](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/7/16746786/al-franken-resignation-speech-sexual-harassment)** > > The senator squandered an opportunity to do good, and offered a master class in what not to do when accused of sexual misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1424 "2017-12-08T11:35:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So can we expect your unwavering call for resignation, even when the bad apple is in a red state and likely to be replaced by a Republican? To answer your question, yes, absolutely - if the evidence substantiates it. But each case is different, with its own set of facts and circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1425 "2017-12-08T11:45:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m 99% certain the delay is for the Minnesota governor to choose the replacement, so the state doesn’t go a day without a Senator. The only way he remains in office is if he becomes a rogue, switches to Independent, and gives the Democrats the finger out of spite. Based on his self-serving and defensive speech yesterday, I can’t rule out the possibility that he’s narcissistic enough to do this. But I suspect that you’re right that picking a replacement is the most likely reason for the delay. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1426 "2017-12-08T12:38:03Z")
asahi and iiandiiii, I agree with 99.9% of your posts overall. But I disagree with your characterization of Franken’s speech as self-serving and defensive. I mean, it did include those qualities, but he had every right to state the facts as he honestly sees them. He is a human being. And, I think it will (as it happens) serve the Democrats (and, ultimately, all public figures) to have such statement as part of the message (assuming they’re true, as they seem to be to me). The alternative — letting accusers have a total monopoly on “truth,” anywhere and everywhere — doesn’t help anyone, nor society overall. I realize there isn’t such a stark binary choice in any particular case, but the effect would be to suggest there is. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1427 "2017-12-08T13:38:34Z")
I thought Franken’s farewell was spot on. He’s falling on his sword for the Democrats to give them the moral high ground. He honestly disagrees with some of the accusations and he should be allowed to say so. The famous photo shows no contact with the breasts of the woman. To equate his behavior with the pedophiliac Roy Moore is preposterous. Hands somewhere very close to the breasts in no way compares to bragging about grabbing women by the pussy. Franken is a good Senator and it’s a sad day when an otherwise fine man has to resign while the infinitely more reprehensible Moore and Donald do not. We’ll miss Franken, I hope he stays on in a role as activist for all of us. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1428 "2017-12-08T13:39:30Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > asahi and iiandiiii, I agree with 99.9% of your posts overall. But I disagree with your characterization of Franken’s speech as self-serving and defensive. I mean, it did include those qualities, but he had every right to state the facts as he honestly sees them. He is a human being. And, I think it will (as it happens) serve the Democrats (and, ultimately, all public figures) to have such statement as part of the message (assuming they’re true, as they seem to be to me). The alternative — letting accusers have a total monopoly on “truth,” anywhere and everywhere — doesn’t help anyone, nor society overall. > > I realize there isn’t such a stark binary choice in any particular case, but the effect would be to suggest there is. I think the chances that he was being honest and truthful are pretty low (far more likely to me is that he’s some combination of dishonest and delusional about his actual behavior). But even if he was, I don’t think such a speech is the time and place to imply that his accusers are dishonest. The only possible credible motivation for dishonesty from the accusers would be a right-wing conspiracy. I think that’s incredibly unlikely, but if it occurred, it could be investigated and revealed. That would be the time (the only time, IMO) to say (or even imply) that the accusers are dishonest. I don’t think it’s possible to determine the honesty and character from the public face of public figures any more. It doesn’t matter that I liked Franken and he seemed like a truly decent, honest, and caring guy before – all that means is that he did a good job of portraying that kind of person (he is an actor, after all). There’s a non-zero possibility that such accusations are mistaken or dishonest, but when they’re looked at altogether, and several are corroborated by others they told at the time, and there’s supporting photographic evidence for several (both ensuring they were present and demonstrating opportunity, in addition to the groping/faux-groping photo) ,and most have similarities in “method”, that brings the likelihood down to vanishingly small, IMO. I’m fine with banking on that great likelihood that Franken did this shit, as far as his presence in public office (criminal trials should and do have different standards) is concerned. If he really was set up somehow, he can go after that as a pretty wealthy private citizen. Dishonest people don’t keep secrets very well, of course. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1429 "2017-12-08T13:43:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, saying you’ll get criticiized for something is quite different from saying you are “prohibited” from doing that thing. But, I guess I missed the pillorying. Can you cite it? He also denied some of the accusations were true in his “I’m leaving the Senate speech”. [The NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/us/politics/al-franken-senate-sexual-harassment.html) notes only one Democratic response: As this entire “trial” is taking place in social media, the reactions of social media are relevant. If the consequence of doing something is punishment from social media, that is being “prohibited” from doing something. It would be like saying that murder is not prohibited, there are just negative consequences for it. You say you missed the pillorying, you need a cite? Well, do you want Mainstream media, social media, or in this very thread? I’ll start with people in this very thread, and if you need more citations of the general condemnation of Franken for now daring to deny the allegations against him, I’ll see if I have time to find a cite that water is wet too. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I thought Franken’s final speech was pretty shitty and mostly self-serving, if anyone’s interested. > > [Al Franken's selfish, damaging resignation speech - Vox](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/7/16746786/al-franken-resignation-speech-sexual-harassment) > [@aldiboronti](#): > > I just actually listened to what Franken said today. I had given him respect for doing the right thing but hearing the weasel words he used I’m taking that back. He promised to resign while insisting that some of the accusations were untrue and for the rest his recollections differed from those of the women. In other words, I didn’t do anything wrong but I’m going because Schumer said I must. Why couldn’t he simply apologize? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1430 "2017-12-08T14:37:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As this entire “trial” is taking place in social media, the reactions of social media are relevant. If the consequence of doing something is punishment from social media, that is being “prohibited” from doing something. It would be like saying that murder is not prohibited, there are just negative consequences for it. The poster who originally made the claim disagrees with you. Did you read their response? > [@](#): > > You say you missed the pillorying, you need a cite? Well, do you want Mainstream media, social media, or in this very thread? > > I’ll start with people in this very thread, and if you need more citations of the general condemnation of Franken for now daring to deny the allegations against him, I’ll see if I have time to find a cite that water is wet too. The claim you made was that he got “pilloried” for his response to accusation #7. Exactly how many folks “pilloried” him in this thread for that? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1431 "2017-12-08T15:22:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The poster who originally made the claim disagrees with you. Did you read their response? Yes I did, and I don’t know that I agree that he disagrees. People are being tried in the media, and especially on social media, and the denials of the latest claims have received fairly negative response. > [@](#): > > The claim you made was that he got “pilloried” for his response to accusation #7. Exactly how many folks “pilloried” him in this thread for that? No, the claim I made was that he got pilloried for denying the accusations, which includes his response to accusation #7. I mean, just believing Franken has a different side to the story gets this type of response: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post > Well done in contributing, in a small but still real way, to the atmosphere that makes victims of sexual assault and harassment less likely to come forward. I’m not looking to get bogged over semantic squabbles about what response was to what accusation, and what was to what statement, because that is pointless. Overall, when Franken admitted to the allegations, apologized and tried to say that he had no intention of harming women, he was condemned. It didn’t matter what his intent was, the refrain kept being “but there’s a picture of him groping, he’s a groper.” That he disputed the intent that was assigned to him made him slimy. Then when allegations came out that he categorically denied, that got him condemned just as much, if not more. Is there at any time that Franken’s side of the story can be believed? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1432 "2017-12-08T15:37:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > “This allegation is categorically not true” is what Franken said about accuser #7. That doesn’t fit your narrative (emphasis added) very well. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > He did say that, and got pilloried for doing so, which is why Sherred says that he isn’t allowed to do that. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, the claim I made was that he got pilloried for denying the accusations, which includes his response to accusation #7. > > \ > > I’m not looking to get bogged over semantic squabbles… It looks like that is exactly what you are doing, so I think I’ll just agree to disagree and let you have the final word. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1433 "2017-12-08T16:20:39Z")
ISTM that the crux of the “Franken speech” issue is how accurate the accusations are. At one extreme, if you believe Franken’s version - that his transgressions were few, accidental, and mild - then he’s entitled to make that clear when he steps down “because it’s difficult for me to be an effective Senator”. If you believe that he’s misrepresenting them, then he’s just adding insult to injury. AFAICT, the posters on each side of the issue tend to hold correlated positions in line with the above. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1434 "2017-12-08T17:07:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > …I’m fine with banking on that great likelihood that Franken did this shit… I agree with you on this. I’m pretty sure he did “shit,” perhaps enough that he should resign for this reason alone (that is, even setting aside the “optics” of the current political context, party politics, etc.). But that still doesn’t mean everything he’s accused of is true, and he has every right to make this point in his farewell speech. And…a “right-wing conspiracy” isn’t the _only_ reason an accuser might either: 1) honestly judge a situation differently than Frank did (this is an impossibility for serious incidents, but quite possible for the mildest ones); or 2) deliberately exaggerate or see an ambiguous action in the worst possible light. Merely wanting to be in the news, or even (more well-intentionedly) part of the current national dialogue, could be a motive for some. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1435 "2017-12-08T17:12:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It looks like that is exactly what you are doing, so I think I’ll just agree to disagree and let you have the final word. You are correct that I was getting caught up in semantic quibbling, but that is only because my statement wasn’t that complex, but it still got demands for showing exactly how and who were responding in what way to each allegation. I disagree that it was I that was purporting it. I was just saying that there did not seem to be any way for him to respond. People did not believe him when he admitted to the actions, but not the intent, and people seemed even more upset with him when he denied the actions themselves, in later accusations. You, or anyone at all, tell me, how do you respond to allegations that you do not believe to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1436 "2017-12-08T20:15:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You, or anyone at all, tell me, how do you respond to allegations that you do not believe to be true? At least some people seem to believe a simple apology is called for. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1437 "2017-12-08T20:17:45Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > At least some people seem to believe a simple apology is called for. Well, he did apologize. And my question was, how do you respond to allegations that you do not believe are true? Do you think that one should apologize for being accused of things that they do not believe are true? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1438 "2017-12-08T20:47:54Z")
And was it wrong of him to complain about variable standards, as he did in mentioning Trump and Moore? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1439 "2017-12-09T13:58:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think the chances that he was being honest and truthful are pretty low (far more likely to me is that he’s some combination of dishonest and delusional about his actual behavior). But even if he was, I don’t think such a speech is the time and place to imply that his accusers are dishonest. The only possible credible motivation for dishonesty from the accusers would be a right-wing conspiracy. I think that’s incredibly unlikely, but if it occurred, it could be investigated and revealed. That would be the time (the only time, IMO) to say (or even imply) that the accusers are dishonest. It’s the most mundane thing in the world for two people to remember an event differently and to embellish a story without meaning to. Unfortunately, people do not recognize that fact in these situations, so any honest questioning of the events becomes an implication the accuser is a liar or cognitively impaired when in reality they are just normal people not trained to tell stories or be witnesses to a crime. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m fine with banking on that great likelihood that Franken did this shit, as far as his presence in public office (criminal trials should and do have different standards) is concerned. If he really was set up somehow, he can go after that as a pretty wealthy private citizen. Dishonest people don’t keep secrets very well, of course. I would want my public figures to lose their positions over something more concrete than these accusations. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And was it wrong of him to complain about variable standards, as he did in mentioning Trump and Moore? Yes, because that resignation wasn’t about the victims or justice. That resignation was about politics. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1440 "2017-12-09T14:07:07Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I would want my public figures to lose their positions over something more concrete than these accusations. Exactly how concrete do you require? We have a pattern of events with victim’s statements, and in all cases the victim told other people at the time about the incidents. In one case, there is literal photographic evidence, and even Franken admitted that posing the pretend-fondling picture was absolutely wrong. I’m not sure why you’d expect there to be more evidence than victim statements in cases of sexual harassment or mild sexual assault (boob/butt grabs). Presume that Politician dude DID do exactly what Franken is accused of - he’d cop a feel when given a chance, and sometimes pressure isolated women into sex on the basis of his position. What concrete evidence would you accept in that situation? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1441 "2017-12-09T14:56:25Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Exactly how concrete do you require? We have a pattern of events with victim’s statements, and in all cases the victim told other people at the time about the incidents. In one case, there is literal photographic evidence, and even Franken admitted that posing the pretend-fondling picture was absolutely wrong. I’m not sure why you’d expect there to be more evidence than victim statements in cases of sexual harassment or mild sexual assault (boob/butt grabs). Presume that Politician dude DID do exactly what Franken is accused of - he’d cop a feel when given a chance, and sometimes pressure isolated women into sex on the basis of his position. What concrete evidence would you accept in that situation? Franken didn’t pressure anybody into sex, so I am unsure what you are referring to. I think an investigation would be more concrete. There is more evidence beyond the victim statements. There’s the evidence that one of the people in question went on to vote for him. There’s the evidence that more than one of the accusers doesn’t believe he should resign. There’s the evidence that other observers of the incidents don’t remember anything odd. There’s evidence that he apologizes when he remembers doing things he’s accused of. He’s only categorically denied the things he’s accused of saying. We’re all free to ignore or emphasize whatever part of these accounts we wish. That’s why I would prefer an investigation prior to any punishment. Anyway, the point is moot. The Republican party could care less about its politicians committing sex crimes and the Democratic party has shown it’ll throw its own under the bus for fairly mild transgressions and misinterpretable events for the sake of the political high road of the moment. If any of these turds in the Senate run for President in 2020, I will be sure to vote against them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=73)