# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1482 "2017-12-11T18:34:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you clarify? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you are saying that no one in CA or NY, for example, will see a tax cut except for the rich in those states. For example, a guy in CA making $45k/year who does not itemize. He’s not going to see a tax decrease? On second thought, don’t bother answering. We all know you’re wrong, and this whole discussion about the tax bill is a hijack of this thread about Franken anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1483 "2017-12-11T18:42:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you clarify? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you are saying that no one in CA or NY, for example, will see a tax cut except for the rich in those states. For example, a guy in CA making $45k/year who does not itemize. He’s not going to see a tax decrease? > **[PA Rep. Lou Barletta overstates benefits of the House tax bi](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/dec/06/lou-barletta/pa-rep-lou-barletta-overstates-benefits-house-tax-/)** > > After a failed attempt at health care reform, Republican leaders in Congress are working on reforming tax policy. The U. _In 2018, the percentage of individuals with a tax increase in the lowest income distribution would be 1.7 percent, 6 percent in the second, 9.2 percent in the middle, 11.5 percent in the fourth and 12.9 percent in the top._ So yeah, in some states you start with a small tax decrease. But then: “\*What will happen is middle-income people and lower-income people will end up paying slightly higher taxes than they do under current law,” Gleckman said. \* Every cite agrees. Some middle class get a small tax cut, then an increase to higher taxes. While the rich just get cuts. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1484 "2017-12-11T18:44:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > For the next ten years, most of us get a tax cut. After that, we still get a tax cut because Democrats won’t let the middle class tax cuts sunset. Maybe, but when the bill come to pay off the huge increase in debt this tax cut is giving the rich, tax increases will occur. They have to. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1485 "2017-12-11T18:49:04Z")
The fake news is rolling in: \ > **[PolitiFact - Fake news: No, a Roy Moore accuser was not arrested for lying](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/dec/11/blog-posting/fake-news-no-roy-moore-accuser-was-not-arrested-ly/)** > > Many supporters of Alabama Republican Roy Moore say they don’t believe accounts of his sexual advances on underage girls > **[PolitiFact - Fake news about Washington Post and Roy Moore accuser stems from...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/dec/11/evening-world/fake-news-about-washington-post-and-roy-moore-accu/)** > > A fake news story said a Washington Post reporter offered a woman money if she would accuse Alabama U.S. Senate candidat > **[PolitiFact - No, Roy Moore accuser didn't admit she forged his signature in...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/dec/08/blog-posting/no-roy-moore-accuser-didnt-tamper-or-forge-yearboo/)** > > A conspiracy-minded website attempted to cast doubt on evidence presented by one of eight women who accused Roy Moore of ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1486 "2017-12-11T19:13:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Maybe, but when the bill come to pay off the huge increase in debt this tax cut is giving the rich, tax increases will occur. They have to. That is true, although tax cuts are dwarfed by Medicare and Medicaid spending in terms of the deficit threat they pose. Health care spending is the whole ball game. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1487 "2017-12-11T20:29:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The fake news is rolling in: > \ > > [PolitiFact | Fake news: No, a Roy Moore accuser was not arrested for lying](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/dec/11/blog-posting/fake-news-no-roy-moore-accuser-was-not-arrested-ly/) > [PolitiFact | Fake news about Washington Post and Roy Moore accuser stems from disputed Twitter account](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/dec/11/evening-world/fake-news-about-washington-post-and-roy-moore-accu/) > > [PolitiFact | No, Roy Moore accuser didn't admit she forged his signature in her yearbook](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/dec/08/blog-posting/no-roy-moore-accuser-didnt-tamper-or-forge-yearboo/) …what does any of that have to do with Franken? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1488 "2017-12-11T20:31:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …what does any of that have to do with Franken? Good point, wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1489 "2017-12-11T21:20:56Z")
A valid comparison, in that he’s isn’t good enough, nor smart enough, and lots of folks hate him. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1490 "2017-12-11T22:39:02Z")
I still like him, sorry. While he probably shouldn’t be an elected official anymore, I would like to read more books from him. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1491 "2017-12-12T17:56:16Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > I can’t speak for anyone else, but – when the time comes to draw a line – consequences cannot be the primary motivating factor or else there isn’t a line drawn at all. Either I stand with Franken or I don’t, and given the evidence and statements against him I can’t bring myself to do so. When it comes to the composition of the senate next year, so be it. Two things bother me about your statements here. First, the Democrats drew no line. The line was drawn at “liability to capitalizing on sexual harassment as a wedge issue in 2018” or “liability to my Presidential aspirations if I don’t come out hard on him now”. As **HurricaneDitka** has enjoyed this entire thread, the response to Franken is driven by political calculation. I’m glad that you feel an appropriate line has been drawn and that its based on the ethics of the matter. I’m glad that you feel it is so clear that you’re willing to increase the likelihood of things like war with N. Korea or Iran or the repeal of Obamacare over it. Second, there is the ethics of Franken’s behavior and there is the ethics of how we handle Franken’s behavior. I don’t want to be a part of a society that flips out so extremely over the accusation of the absolute mildest form of sexual harassment that it doesn’t bother to investigate before it forces elected officials out of office, forces an early election, and forces the citizens to be represented by someone they did not choose. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1492 "2017-12-12T18:27:01Z")
Let’s keep in mind that Franken wasn’t “forced out”. No one can force him out, short of a vote by the full Senate. The leaders convinced him, for whatever reason, that he should leave. I personally think they did it because they thought it would better for the party if he left. But if he disagreed, he should not have acquiesced-- he should have stood firm, and let the chips fall where they may. For those who think Franken should have stayed, why do you think he decided to leave? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1493 "2017-12-12T19:12:32Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > … As **HurricaneDitka** has enjoyed this entire thread… I confess, this is probably one of my all-time favorite SDMB threads. For me personally, it even beats out the schadenfreude thread for comedic value. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1494 "2017-12-12T19:22:06Z")
If only I had a dollar for every time I read a post that started with “I am amused that…” or “I find it hilarious that…”. Most frequently, these are posted by tighty rightys who have no discernible sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1495 "2017-12-12T19:29:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If only I had a dollar for every time I read a post that started with “I am amused that…” or “I find it hilarious that…”. Most frequently, these are posted by tighty rightys who have no discernible sense of humor. That would be what we call confirmation bias, assuming you are talking about this MB… ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1496 "2017-12-12T19:36:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > he should have stood firm, and let the chips fall where they may. For those who think Franken should have stayed, why do you think he decided to leave? 34 of the 48 people you’d expect to stand with you are asking you to leave. They forced him out or convinced him to leave on his own. I doubt it had anything to do with the substance of the charges. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I confess, this is probably one of my all-time favorite SDMB threads. For me personally, it even beats out the schadenfreude thread for comedic value. It’s refreshing to argue about the appropriate response and characteristics of sexual harassment instead of dealing with the typical Republican who barely is able to acknowledge such a thing exists. I am actually learning something from this argument and it’ll make me a better person in the future. Arguing about this topic (and many others like Race-IQ, Global Warming) with members of the party of Moore and Trump just gives me fleas. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1497 "2017-12-16T20:07:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s something that’s already built into the GOP brand. They cut taxes on the rich every time they have power. So yes, it will hurt them, but not in any new way. It just further solidifies them as a party of the rich who don’t care about the deficit. That’s what those who oppose the GOP say about them, sure. But it’s not what the faithful claim. They claim that the Republicans are the ones actually concerned about the debt. This blatant of an act to increase the debt is harmful to that image. It makes the Democrats seem like they are right. Remember, the GOP paints the Democrats as the party that is all the “elites” who don’t care about the “common man” and claim they just want to increase the deficit. They paint themselves as the saviors. Now Democrats can use those same appeals. I also don’t agree that Republicans are using any sort of long-term strategy about tax cuts. It was just what they had to do to get the tax bill passed for the rich people. They did something profoundly unpopular, so they mixed it in with something popular. That’s the trick here. They’re hoping people will care more about getting a little more money back than they will about increasing the national debt or helping out the rich. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1498 "2017-12-16T21:24:24Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > 34 of the 48 people you’d expect to stand with you are asking you to leave. They forced him out or convinced him to leave on his own. I doubt it had anything to do with the substance of the charges. He can’t be “forced” out, except through the impeachment process. I’m not even sure what you mean by that, since you offer the alternative that they convinced him to leave. Can you clarify? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1499 "2017-12-17T08:30:40Z")
Maybe the Democrats created a hostile work environment for Franken so he would quit. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1500 "2017-12-18T14:20:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He can’t be “forced” out, except through the impeachment process. I’m not even sure what you mean by that, since you offer the alternative that they convinced him to leave. Can you clarify? Franken is on a team in the Senate. A large proportion of the team asked him to resign. It’s easy to predict his job will be made more difficult when a large part of his team makes it public they want him gone. I interpret such a sequence of events as having been forced out. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1501 "2017-12-18T16:54:58Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Franken is on a team in the Senate. A large proportion of the team asked him to resign. It’s easy to predict his job will be made more difficult when a large part of his team makes it public they want him gone. I interpret such a sequence of events as having been forced out. If that’s being forced out, then this is a relatively common thing, since lots of other officials have resigned after pressure from their side. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=76)