# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/141 "2017-11-16T19:29:22Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I’d hate to see the Dems feel compelled to make an example of one of their own for a relatively minor transgression whilst the shameless Republicans feel no such compulsion. So you’re saying you don’t think the Democrats should actually strive to be better than Republicans, and that they should only be opposed to sexual assault if it serves to give them more power? That’s pretty awful, and very damaging to sexual assault victims. And might explain the difficulties Democrats have in trying to claim the high ground against Republicans. Also, Al Franken doesn’t think this was a minor transgression that should be glossed over, “It’s completely inappropriate… And, what’s more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/142 "2017-11-16T19:30:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > FWIW: The second apology was much better, IMO. I still think he ought to resign. Having gropers in prominent positions in the party hurts the party. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/143 "2017-11-16T19:34:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The political danger there is that once they’ve established the precedent that the correct response to accusations against a sitting senator is to force them to resign, you’ll probably be able to count the milliseconds on one hand until a bunch of red-state Dem senators have accusations made against them. Yeah. Asking for the resignation of a sitting Senator should be an extraordinary step. I think we’re asking for trouble if we lower the bar below “highly credible allegations of serious criminal behavior in the recent past”. (and to be clear, the “highly credible” part is what, at least as of yet, I’m not seeing her; the alleged conduct certainly merits resignation). Failing that, let the voters express their judgment at the next regularly scheduled election. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/144 "2017-11-16T19:37:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, it’s not obvious. Credibility for allegations of personal misbehavior is (or should be) based on honesty, plausibility, etc. Not who one associates with, or one’s political beliefs. A liberal accusing a conservative, or vice versa, is no more or less credible than a liberal accusing a liberal, or conservative accusing a conservative. Only if you believe that bias doesn’t exist. Which would be surprising of anyone, but especially someone who participates in this MB. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/145 "2017-11-16T19:40:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, it’s not obvious. Credibility for allegations of personal misbehavior is (or should be) based on honesty, plausibility, etc. Not who one associates with, or one’s political beliefs. A liberal accusing a conservative, or vice versa, is no more or less credible than a liberal accusing a liberal, or conservative accusing a conservative. So you think that the fact that she went on national TV to claim that President Obama was born in Kenya isn’t relevant to evaluating the accuser’s honesty and plausibility? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/146 "2017-11-16T19:40:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Only if you believe that bias doesn’t exist. Which would be surprising of anyone, but especially someone who participates in this MB. Bias exists, but it can exist in any direction. I don’t see how political affiliation is relevant. If there’s evidence that they lied for political gain, then okay. But until and unless that (or other evidence of lying) is found, every accusation should be treated and approached the same, IMO. That means no attacking accusers for being on one side or the other. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/147 "2017-11-16T19:41:59Z")
BTW: This was up early today on NPR thanks to Moore: [**No One Has Been Expelled From The Senate Since The Civil War**](https://www.npr.org/2017/11/16/564229931/no-one-has-been-expelled-from-the-senate-since-the-civil-war) Seems appropriate reading for those thinking an investigation in Franken is worthwhile. Not much to investigate anyway. She said, he mostly acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/148 "2017-11-16T19:43:31Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > So you think that the fact that she went on national TV to claim that President Obama was born in Kenya isn’t relevant to evaluating the accuser’s honesty and plausibility? For political claims, yes (assuming she did). Not for claims about personal mistreatment. Not unless you have evidence she lied about Franken. I find the attacks in your posts on this women for nothing more than coming forward and telling a story (a story that Franken has almost entirely admitted to and apologized for) to be disgusting, and to contribute to this shit culture we have about women who accuse men of mistreatment. That attitude helps abusers, and hurts victims. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/149 "2017-11-16T19:45:56Z")
I should be pleased that a Democrat is in deep doodoo but I’m not. If a man’s political career can be destroyed over this one incident then we should all be worried. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/150 "2017-11-16T19:46:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bias exists, but it can exist in any direction. I don’t see how political affiliation is relevant. People are biased in the direction of their political affiliation. People think more negatively of people they’re opposed to politically, and are more apt to interpret their actions negatively. In addition, they’re biased by their ability to impact politics in their preferred direction. > [@](#): > > If there’s evidence that they lied for political gain, then okay. Even if there’s no evidence, it needs to be considered as a possibility. It’s silly to ignore it. The actual likelihood would vary based on the circumstances of the particular case, and the supporting evidence. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/151 "2017-11-16T19:55:00Z")
Pantastic wrote: “So you’re saying you don’t think the Democrats should actually strive to be better than Republicans…” Yes, I do. But having said that the old “when they go low, we go high” thing (which kind of takes on a different meaning in this whole context) isn’t all that different functionally from bringing the proverbial knife to the proverbial gunfight. And regarding the seriousness of the transgression, I did not characterize it as minor but as _relatively_ minor. You know, as compared to Moore or trump. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/152 "2017-11-16T19:55:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > People are biased in the direction of their political affiliation. People think more negatively of people they’re opposed to politically, and are more apt to interpret their actions negatively.… I think the strong negative reaction to misbehavior on the part of Republicans is based on the huge banner of _Family Values!_ and _Morality_ that they wave so vehemently. Seems like some kind of double standard going on there. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/153 "2017-11-16T19:59:09Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Are we to be similarly outraged by millions of photos taken by college students, [like these](https://www.google.com/search?q=passed+out+pictures&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLwPLCzcPXAhWIgVQKHTVrDHsQ_AUICigB&biw=1324&bih=969)? Damn! Some of those pics are really impressive! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/154 "2017-11-16T19:59:15Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Al Franken strongly disagrees with you on this. He actually says that there’s no excuse for the pciture, that he’s disgusted with himself for taking it, and that it’s obvious millions of women would feel violated by it. I think I’ll take the accused’s side in this instance! "For instance, that picture. I don’t know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn’t matter. There’s no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn’t funny. It’s completely inappropriate. It’s obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what’s more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me. Franken is a politician and he is way too smart to wade in to this fraught and highly charged discussion with anything approaching a nuanced argument. Instead he issues a straight apology with no ambiguity. No surprise there. In the scheme of things the photo of him groping her is pretty minor (assuming he never actually groped her and only posed the picture). Tasteless sure. Not funny either. But if we are to expect every man and [woman](https://s-i.huffpost.com/gen/984199/images/o-ELLEN-DEGENERES-KATY-PERRY-facebook.jpg) who made some lewd gesture at some point in their lives to lose their job we will have a big problem in this country. This is a tempest in a tea pot. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/155 "2017-11-16T20:07:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > … (She was sleeping at the time anyway.) This is an interesting defense. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/156 "2017-11-16T20:09:06Z")
Good apology, and I hope this does not ruin his career. If there aren’t a bunch of other accusers popping out of the woodwork, I say let the apology stand (especially since the accuser accepts it) and move on. At worst, ask him to do some community service or something. Best if he volunteers to do it himself. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/157 "2017-11-16T20:09:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This is an interesting defense. “Defense” of what? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/158 "2017-11-16T20:10:04Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > She has been a frequent guest on Sean Hannity’s show. About an hour ago I found some cites on Google of her identifying as a Tea Party supporter and saying she would like to “kick Obama’s ass”, but now all the search results are pointing to stories about today’s allegations. > > On the fifth page down I found [this](http://www.wnd.com/2011/03/279021/) example of her promoting birtherism on Hannity’s show. Honest question, why is it fair to do ascribe political motivations to Franken’s accuser but was so wrong to do this with Moore’s accuser at the beginning? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/159 "2017-11-16T20:12:19Z")
Twitter reports of another one incoming. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/160 "2017-11-16T20:14:53Z")
I think an ethics investigation is appropriate. If it finds no other incidents then I can see my way toward some minor punishment, but calls for resignation are too far. On the spectrum of recent notable incidents, I’d rank them about like this. 1. Weinstein 2. Cosby 3. Moore 4. Spacey gap 1. Louis C. K. big gap 1. Franken 2. Bush I’m not a Democrat. This just doesn’t seem that bad to me. I guess we’ll see what the ethics investigation turns up though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=9)