# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1602 "2019-07-24T15:04:31Z")
So they’re not delusional, they’re just married to a delusional belief. Neat trick. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1603 "2019-07-24T15:14:40Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So they’re not delusional, they’re just married to a delusional belief. Neat trick. …to be crystal clear: a \*\*specific \*\*delusional belief. To be even more percise: “married to the delusional belief that it’s all just a frame-up”. And not a “neat trick” at all. Its just how the english language works. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1604 "2019-07-24T15:29:42Z")
In casual conversation, “you’re delusional” means you are holding a deluded opinion, not that you require a stay in a mental hospital. That’s how english works with that word. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1605 "2019-07-24T15:33:09Z")
Quite a fine hair to split: “you’re delusional” vs. “you’re espousing a delusional belief.” I recognize a distinction, but let’s face it: from a distance, all cats are grey. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1606 "2019-07-24T15:37:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > In casual conversation, “you’re delusional” means you are holding a deluded opinion, not that you require a stay in a mental hospital. That’s how english works with that word. …were you talking to me? Is this in reference to something I’ve said? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1607 "2019-07-24T15:47:29Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Quite a fine hair to split: “you’re delusional” vs. “you’re espousing a delusional belief.” I recognize a distinction, but let’s face it: from a distance, all cats are grey. …its not a fine hair to split at all. It was a very specific statement and it is simply incorrect to claim that it was a general statement. Its the difference between claiming Marcotte said "“Franken’s defenders are all delusional” and what she actually said which was “Franken’s defenders are married to the delusional belief\*\* that it’s all just a frame-up”\*\*. There is no fine line there. The two sentences mean two different things. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1608 "2019-07-24T15:52:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …Thats hack journalism. Its appalling journalism, its simply bad journalism and it deserves to be called out. We agree on something! 🙂 (excellent post, BTW) ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1609 "2019-07-24T18:38:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …its not a fine hair to split at all. It was a very specific statement and it is simply incorrect to claim that it was a general statement. Its the difference between claiming Marcotte said "“Franken’s defenders are all delusional” and what she actually said which was “Franken’s defenders are married to the delusional belief\*\* that it’s all just a frame-up”\*\*. There is no fine line there. The two sentences mean two different things. I never said they didn’t. I’m saying that the distinction is not as “comparing apples and Winnebagos” as you seem to be repeating. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1610 "2019-07-24T19:28:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Franken’s behavior wasn’t nearly as bad as that of Kavanaugh or Trump, and they remain in office. By that standard, one can argue that Franken should have remained in office, too. But one can also argue that we should hold ourselves to high standards even (or especially) when our opponents are not. I still can’t believe that Al Franken resigned over that picture, although there may have been other things going on that weren’t reported. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1611 "2019-07-24T19:40:23Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I still can’t believe that Al Franken resigned over that picture, although there may have been other things going on that weren’t reported. There were other things reported. About 7 women said he groped them while posing for pictures at public gatherings. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1612 "2019-07-24T20:33:31Z")
When impartial, completely non-biased author Jane Mayer contacted one of the 7 different women who Franken groped and asked her (surely with delicate, sisterly compassion) if she now felt that Franken’s behavior was “bad enough to end his Senate career” his victim rightly replied “I didn’t end his Senate career, he did.”, and when informed of her statement poor, innocent Saint Al of 30 Rock literally began to cry, sniviling like a spoiled, entitled little shit, “This thing has really destroyed my family, for her to say that is just so callous!” No contrition, no introspection, just endlessly blaming everyone else for his own vile actions, not unlike a certain New York City businessman turned politician who also shows no concern for the people he has treated like garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1613 "2019-07-24T21:02:08Z")
> [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > When impartial, completely non-biased author Jane Mayer contacted one of the 7 different women who Franken groped and asked her (surely with delicate, sisterly compassion) if she now felt that Franken’s behavior was “bad enough to end his Senate career” his victim rightly replied “I didn’t end his Senate career, he did.”, and when informed of her statement poor, innocent Saint Al of 30 Rock literally began to cry, sniviling like a spoiled, entitled little shit, “This thing has really destroyed my family, for her to say that is just so callous!” > > No contrition, no introspection, just endlessly blaming everyone else for his own vile actions, not unlike a certain New York City businessman turned politician who also shows no concern for the people he has treated like garbage. I assume you’re referring to this bit from the _New Yorker_ article: > [@](#): > > Not long ago, I asked the woman if she thought that Franken had been making a sexual advance or a clumsy thank-you gesture. > > “Is there a difference?” she replied. “If someone tries to do something to you unwanted?” From her standpoint, because she was at work—a professional woman deserving respect—his intentions didn’t matter. > > Franken has maintained that the woman’s story was the allegation “that killed me.” I asked her if his behavior was bad enough to end his Senate career. > > “I didn’t end his Senate career—he did,” she said. > > Franken was stricken when I related her comments to him. “Look,” he said. “This has really affected my family. I loved being in the Senate. I loved my staff—we had fun and we got good things done, big and small, and they all meant something to me.” He started to cry. “For her to say that, it’s just so callous. It’s just so wrong.” Rubbing his eyes beneath his glasses, he said, “I ended my career by saying ‘Thanks’ to her—that’s what she’s saying.” I might cry too if I lost my career over what I intended as a friendly (and non-sexual) gesture. Based on that article and other things I’ve read, I’m still not convinced that Franken is guilty of anything worse than being “physically obtuse.” ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1614 "2019-07-24T21:29:58Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I still can’t believe that Al Franken resigned over that picture, although there may have been other things going on that weren’t reported. Eight women reported Franken behaved inappropriately, about half of them are Democrats. Allegations include unwanted sexual advances, unwanted touching and propositioning a junior aide. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1615 "2019-07-24T23:19:48Z")
Even the picture alone is enough. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1616 "2019-07-24T23:38:12Z")
It really wasn’t. If all it had been was the picture, he’d have been fine. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1617 "2019-07-25T00:49:43Z")
This is so bizarre. On the same board where it’s not considered okay for any of us common folk to say Jeopardy champ James Holzhauer is “nice looking”, hardly anyone agrees with me that taking this kind of photo while a woman is sleeping and then spreading it around to everyone on the tour, right before running for Senate, is disqualifying? 😕 Look, I get it: Franken is smart, with a lacerating wit that he used to fillet Republicans. It was glorious. But it’s over. We can’t have a muddled message about this stuff. I happened to see Tina Smith interviewed on my local news tonight, denouncing Mitch McConnell for blocking an election protection bill that has bipartisan support. She is perfectly fine and adds to female representation in the Senate. Get over it! ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1618 "2019-07-25T01:09:05Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > …Based on that article and other things I’ve read, I’m still not convinced that Franken is guilty of anything worse than being “physically obtuse.” He may be guilty of coming from a family background and/or culture in which it’s okay to touch people. He may have come from a long line of huggers. People who, when a photo is suggested, put their arm out and pull you in by the waist. People who kiss to say hello and goodbye. I don’t come from such a culture. I come from a WASP background, and I react negatively to people who are more touchy-feely. I don’t mean to react negatively (and I do try to be polite), but I do have a certain visceral ‘no’ response that I can’t quite talk myself out of. However, the fact is that WASP culture is somewhat isolated in this. More people worldwide, I’d guess, are good with the hugging and kissing than WASP people can imagine. The accusations against Franken fall into the chasm of misunderstandings created by these two basic orientations: WASP and non-WASP. Leaving aside for the moment the largely-discredited Tweeden accusations, the accusers all made some variation on the story that they were with Franken in some voluntary situation (radio interview; posing for a photo) and he made physical contact in a way they found objectionable. This, by the way, is what’s been said of Biden. About neither man has it been said that they follow women around the grocery store or into an elevator and then pounce. About neither are there any stories about the man calling a woman into his office and then asking for sex or such. Instead, social niceties—taking a photo; thanking someone after an interview—are the occasion for physical contact that the woman feels goes beyond the level of social niceties she finds culturally acceptable. For example, the last woman to come forward said this, describing how she was attending > [@](#): > > …a swanky Media Matters party with Democratic notables everywhere. Then I saw Al Franken. I only bug celebrities for pictures when it’ll make my foster mom happy. She loves Franken, so I asked to get a picture with him. We posed for the shot. He immediately put his hand on my waist, grabbing a handful of flesh. I froze. Then he squeezed. At least twice. > **[I Believe Franken’s Accusers Because He Groped Me, Too](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/i-believe-frankens-accusers-because-he-groped-me-too/547691/)** > > The Democratic Party needs to stand with women who have been harassed—and not defend the politicians who abused them. All the accusations are like that. He kissed a woman’s cheek and she felt the kiss was too wet. He posed for a photo at a woman’s request and, she says, held the side of her breast. (The photo doesn’t show that.) He posed for another photo and the woman later stated about the 2010 encounter that Franken > [@](#): > > “pulled me in really close, like awkward close, and as my husband took the picture, he put his hand full-fledged on my rear,” Menz said. “It was wrapped tightly around my butt cheek.” > “It wasn’t around my waist. It wasn’t around my hip or side. It was definitely on my butt,” she said, recalling that the brazen act lasted three or four seconds. [https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html) As a WASP, I’m dismayed by these kinds of acts. I would never do such things. I don’t like it when others do such things to me (or try to). And I believe that politicians should not do such things. It’s clearly unwise, if nothing else. But what’s missing here is reasonable certainty that these were deliberate acts of sexual harassment. What’s missing here is reasonable certainty that Franken did these things with the intention of demeaning the women.What’s missing here is reasonable certainty that those taking the anti-Franken position are correct to label these incidents as “groping.” Or as “disgusting” or as any of the other leaps-to-judgment we’ve seen in this thread and elsewhere. There’s a cultural factor here that is being ignored. Does it play a role? Can we rule out the idea that what these women were defining as offensive conduct, may not have been intended as such? That’s what an investigation would have gotten us close to: a greater chance of reasonable certainty. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1619 "2019-07-25T01:26:59Z")
Has nothing to do with how much I luurves Franken. I just don’t think it’s that big a deal. They were doing a baudy comedy tour. If this had been in isolation, I would have written it off. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1620 "2019-07-25T01:31:33Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Oh, I do too. I’d say I’m on her “side” more often than not. But it still pisses me off when she makes unsupported arguments to win over readers. She’s like another writer on Salon ::cough cough:: Chauncey DeVega who often does the same thing. Hijacking here, there is a guy named Bob Somerby who has a site called [The Daily Howler](http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/). He is as liberal as they come, but his big thing is insisting that in the long run, it doesn’t benefit the left to be dishonest liars the way FOX News, et. al. are. Certainly propaganda works, but when taken to extreme it can lead to disaster. Recommended, if you are interested. Bookmarked it! (No time today for more than a cursory look. Dude is certainly not pulling any punches, I will say!) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1621 "2019-07-25T02:19:07Z")
Sherrerd, nothing in your post addresses the photo taken of Tweeden while she was asleep. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=80) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=82)