# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 83
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1642 "2019-07-25T14:25:39Z")
As to where [the culture actually is](https://morningconsult.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/181011_crosstabs_METOO_Adults_v1_.pdf). Data always good and Morning Consult reliable. Culture cares about #metoo, recognizes it as a problem, huge majorities, _and also_ cares about both false accusations and men being denied due process when accusation are made. See pages 60 and following. Of all adults 54% are very concerned and 78% at least somewhat concerned about false accusations, including 73% of all under 38 years of age. Similarly 45% and 74% very or at least somewhat about due process. 69% of all adults at least somewhat concerned about men’s careers being ruined by an accusation. 71% that “the punishment for less-serious forms of sexual assault or harassment being the same as the punishment for more-serious forms of sexual assault or harassment.” Detailed breakdowns there. So I think your guidance about where culture is taken for what it is worth. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1643 "2019-07-25T14:33:32Z")
Franken is the past, we don’t need him. What is the value of revising his wobbly political career? We have real issues to address and finding employment for a creepy television writer is pretty far down the list. Someone should have told Franken that being a senator is difficult and that we expect higher standards from a senator than we did from a performer on fifty year old TV show. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1644 "2019-07-25T14:36:03Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > He may be guilty of coming from a family background and/or culture in which it’s okay to touch people. He may have come from a long line of huggers. People who, when a photo is suggested, put their arm out and pull you in by the waist. People who kiss to say hello and goodbye. > > I don’t come from such a culture. I come from a WASP background, and I react negatively to people who are more touchy-feely. I don’t mean to react negatively (and I do try to be polite), but I do have a certain visceral ‘no’ response that I can’t quite talk myself out of. > > However, the fact is that WASP culture is somewhat isolated in this. More people worldwide, I’d guess, are good with the hugging and kissing than WASP people can imagine. > > The accusations against Franken fall into the chasm of misunderstandings created by these two basic orientations: WASP and non-WASP. > > Leaving aside for the moment the largely-discredited Tweeden accusations, the accusers all made some variation on the story that they were with Franken in some voluntary situation (radio interview; posing for a photo) and he made physical contact in a way they found objectionable. > > This, by the way, is what’s been said of Biden. About neither man has it been said that they follow women around the grocery store or into an elevator and then pounce. About neither are there any stories about the man calling a woman into his office and then asking for sex or such. Instead, social niceties—taking a photo; thanking someone after an interview—are the occasion for physical contact that the woman feels goes beyond the level of social niceties she finds culturally acceptable. > > For example, the last woman to come forward said this, describing how she was attending > > [Tina Dupuy: I Believe Franken’s Accusers Because He Groped Me, Too - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/i-believe-frankens-accusers-because-he-groped-me-too/547691/) > > All the accusations are like that. He kissed a woman’s cheek and she felt the kiss was too wet. He posed for a photo at a woman’s request and, she says, held the side of her breast. (The photo doesn’t show that.) He posed for another photo and the woman later stated about the 2010 encounter that Franken > > [https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html) > As a WASP, I’m dismayed by these kinds of acts. I would never do such things. I don’t like it when others do such things to me (or try to). And I believe that politicians should not do such things. It’s clearly unwise, if nothing else. > > But what’s missing here is reasonable certainty that these were deliberate acts of sexual harassment. What’s missing here is reasonable certainty that Franken did these things with the intention of demeaning the women.What’s missing here is reasonable certainty that those taking the anti-Franken position are correct to label these incidents as “groping.” Or as “disgusting” or as any of the other leaps-to-judgment we’ve seen in this thread and elsewhere. > > There’s a cultural factor here that is being ignored. Does it play a role? Can we rule out the idea that what these women were defining as offensive conduct, may not have been intended as such? > > That’s what an investigation would have gotten us close to: a greater chance of reasonable certainty. That is a lot of excuses for sexual assault. Sure you want to go down that path? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1645 "2019-07-25T14:37:09Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > He’s sexually objectifying her in that picture. Well, duh. Of course it’s an asshole thing to do. That’s part of the joke. She wasn’t in on the joke in that particular picture, but reportedly they did jokes onstage involving Franken (or, more properly, Franken’s comic persona) sexually objectifying her, repeatedly, and she fully cooperated with those jokes. > [@the New Yorker article](#): > > James Downey said, “Much of what Al does when goofing around involves adopting the persona of a douche bag. When I saw the photo, I knew exactly what he was doing. The joke was about him. He was doing ‘an asshole.’ ” Christine Zander, who wrote for “S.N.L.” between 1987 and 1993, said, “It was a mockery of someone acting in bad taste,” > [@](#): > > However, I will admit there are times when things like that are okay. If they were really close friends who had a habit of pranking each other, then I could see this as just part of their relationship. If it’s 100% certain that the other person won’t be offended and would see the humor, then it could be okay. But that is not the case in this situation. He did not have that kind of relationship with her, and she did not appreciate it. See, that’s the thing: it looks like maybe they _did_ have something like this kind of relationship, or he reasonably thought they did. That she actually was okay with it at the time, but only later retroactively became offended as a way of taking him down politically and/or punishing him for his mockery of Sean Hannity and Fox News. I don’t know if that’s true, but it looks like it’s a possibility; and it’s the theory that the _New Yorker_ article seems to be presenting, with some justification. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1646 "2019-07-25T14:50:52Z")
After a few cold ‘skis and a round or two of Devil’s Triange, Timmy & Squee said that good ol’ Judge Kav liked to play an asshole too. All in good fun, right? Now, when is the next reunion of the Renate Alumni? (If you’ll pardon me, I’ve gotta boof, all this talk of poor Senator Franken has that effect on me) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1647 "2019-07-25T14:54:45Z")
Yeah, the picture in isolation is not much. It’s in keeping with the whole USO shtick they’d been doing. The problem is all the other reports it brought out. Biden spent 40 years being the quintessential overly touchy politician and yet when #metoo turned to him, nobody talked about an ass grab. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1648 "2019-07-25T15:08:54Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Franken is the past, we don’t need him. What is the value of revising his wobbly political career? We have real issues to address … Completely agree. But if he decides to run for some office again it will be up for the voters in his state or district to decide about, yah? What the Morning Consult data informs about though is that across the board, especially among Ds, there is huge agreement on need for concern regarding “sexual harassment and assault young women could face throughout their life” … AND that there is also huge concern with agreement across the board regarding that there is need for concern about false accusations, about having due process, about careers being ruined, and about less serious offenses being lumped with same degree of punishment as the more serious. There is also a sizable minority (22% of Ds) that isn’t too concerned about the less serious being punished the same degree as the more serious, some (6%) not at all concerned. Some of them are very active in social media. They are the minority but the subject is still very divisive because they are the very active. And we really can’t afford too many fracture lines this time. So really Franken should at least lay low until after 2020 if he wants his state’s voters to decide if he is worth another chance. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1649 "2019-07-25T15:44:18Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I don’t know if that’s true, but it looks like it’s a possibility; and it’s the theory that the _New Yorker_ article seems to be presenting, with some justification. When it just affects a couple of people, then it’s up to them to decide how to handle it. But when Franken is representing other people, those people will hold him to their own standard. I’m 100% sure he was joking around, but he was joking around about sexual objectification. I think it’s reasonable for his constituents to be offended by that. They want to be represented by someone who doesn’t engage in that even if he’s just joking around. A similar argument could be made if he was joking around about racism, pedophilia, homosexuality, bullying, or some other controversial topic. For someone who feels like they are a victim of sexual objectification, they want it to be treated as a serious matter. Joking about it just helps perpetuate that it’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1650 "2019-07-25T16:33:23Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I’m 100% sure he was joking around, but he was joking around about sexual objectification. I get the impression that those USO shows (not just the ones involving Franken) involved quite a bit of that—the subset of bawdy humor that involves joking around about sexual objectification. Is it time to consider those sorts of jokes off-limits, or Not Funny Anymore? Maybe. That’s not the conversation we’ve been having here, but maybe it’s a conversation we should be having. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1651 "2019-07-25T16:48:01Z")
Maybe they should drop having Hooters/lingerie models from being part of the act too. Tweeden’s only real claim to fame at that point was her own sexual objectification. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1652 "2019-07-25T16:49:51Z")
I can’t believe what I’m reading in this thread. Look, there are jokes, and there are jokes. We didn’t need the “me, too” movement to know that Franken’s picture is degrading and that it’s not unreasonable for a woman to feel a sense of humiliation at being the butt of that kind of ‘joke’. Yes, I get that it was a mistake. He shouldn’t be imprisoned over it. He probably could have survived it politically were it not for the fact that…it’s a pattern of questionable behavior. And who seriously gives a fuck if he’s a comedian? Comedians can’t get away with being racist, homophobic, or misogynistic. If he wants to run again, he can be my guest, but I’ll certainly think a lot less of him if he proves to be that level of vain. I get the feeling that the reason Franken’s expressing regret isn’t because he’s truly sorry for making women uncomfortable, but he looks at himself as a victim, having given up a Senate seat over past behavior while someone like Trump gets away with lewd behavior all the time. He wishes he had fought back like Trump, like Ralph Northam, and like Justin Fairfax. He should start his own hashtag movement: #notsorrybitches ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1653 "2019-07-25T16:58:30Z")
Why don’t you think that the fact they had done the very same gag in the skits they performed as a mitigating factor? No, he shouldn’t have done it while she was asleep but it’s not like Franken made some “gonna grab your boobs” joke out of the blue. They had done the gag together several times. I can understand that you think it’s still not right but “I can’t believe what I’m reading”? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1654 "2019-07-25T17:31:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Why don’t you think that the fact they had done the very same gag in the skits they performed as a mitigating factor? No, he shouldn’t have done it while she was asleep but it’s not like Franken made some “gonna grab your boobs” joke out of the blue. They had done the gag together several times. When it’s part of the act, it’s consensual. Presumably, she’s aware of what is going on in the act and has agreed to it. She has some control in how it’s being portrayed and for what purpose it will be used for. But when she’s sleeping, she can’t consent and doesn’t have any control over it. It also seems more demeaning to me what he did. It’s not a sign of respect. He used her for a joke without her knowledge. An actor may portray any manner of sexual deviant behaviors, but that doesn’t mean that they are okay with any of that off-screen. I suppose a reverse scenario would be if she went up to him when he was sleeping and did something to sexually objectify him. For example, what if she indicated he had a small penis. I can imagine a picture where she is smirking with one hand over her mouth and the other near his crotch making a hand gesture for a tiny penis. Even if there were some jokes in the act where she may have implied “he wouldn’t measure up to be with her”, I don’t imagine that Franklin would be okay with such a picture being taken. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1655 "2019-07-25T18:04:55Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > When it’s part of the act, it’s consensual. Presumably, she’s aware of what is going on in the act and has agreed to it. She has some control in how it’s being portrayed and for what purpose it will be used for. But when she’s sleeping, she can’t consent and doesn’t have any control over it. It also seems more demeaning to me what he did. It’s not a sign of respect. He used her for a joke without her knowledge. An actor may portray any manner of sexual deviant behaviors, but that doesn’t mean that they are okay with any of that off-screen. > > I suppose a reverse scenario would be if she went up to him when he was sleeping and did something to sexually objectify him. For example, what if she indicated he had a small penis. I can imagine a picture where she is smirking with one hand over her mouth and the other near his crotch making a hand gesture for a tiny penis. Even if there were some jokes in the act where she may have implied “he wouldn’t measure up to be with her”, I don’t imagine that Franklin would be okay with such a picture being taken. I agree 100% with the first paragraph but I honestly believe he’d be ok with the scenario in the second. Of course, his actual response is unknowable. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1656 "2019-07-25T18:43:40Z")
I said mitigating not exonerating. This is the lack of nuance that worries people. Yeah, we all know this isn’t “grb em by the pussy” stuff but you don’t act like you know that. For example, in this very thread Sunny Daze says she doesn’t think it matters if he actually grabbed her breasts or not. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1657 "2019-07-25T19:31:55Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I agree 100% with the first paragraph but I honestly believe he’d be ok with the scenario in the second. Of course, his actual response is unknowable. I agree with you that he might be okay with her making fun of his penis. Men are generally receptive to interactions with attractive women and give them a lot of leeway for behavior. But what if it wasn’t an attractive woman? What if it was one of the men who was doing something like pretending to kiss him or fondle his penis while he slept? I’m not so sure Franken would be okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1658 "2019-07-25T19:39:36Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Well, duh. Of course it’s an asshole thing to do. That’s part of the joke. She wasn’t in on the joke in that particular picture, but reportedly they did jokes onstage involving Franken (or, more properly, Franken’s comic persona) sexually objectifying her, repeatedly, and she fully cooperated with those jokes. …but she was asleep in the photo. She didn’t fully cooperate in that photo. She didn’t consent to that photo. What she did do when she was awake is completely irrelevant. > [@](#): > > See, that’s the thing: it looks like maybe they _did_ have something like this kind of relationship, or he reasonably thought they did. That she actually was okay with it at the time, but only later retroactively became offended as a way of taking him down politically and/or punishing him for his mockery of Sean Hannity and Fox News. See, here’s the thing: there is no material difference between adopting the “persona of a douche bag” and actually having the “persona of a douche bag.” If you act like a “douche bag” you are being a “douche bag”, even if you are only pretending to be a “douche bag.” > [@](#): > > I don’t know if that’s true, but it looks like it’s a possibility; and it’s the theory that the _New Yorker_ article seems to be presenting, with some justification. The New Yorker article was atrocious journalism of the worst sort. We can completely eliminate Tweeden’s story and we still have seven other allegations. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1659 "2019-07-25T19:48:16Z")
Franken was tasked with writing the USO skit, which could have literally been about anything in the world, which the woman agreed to be in. Franken the perv then writes, natch, a skit that requires them to kiss, and also insists on practicing the skit, including actual kiss, multiple times, under the guise of needing to get the skit down pat perfect, because you know, USO bits need to be 100% mistake free! USO audiences and their damned insistence on performance realism is to blame, not Weird Al! ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1660 "2019-07-25T19:54:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > For example, in this very thread Sunny Daze says she doesn’t think it matters if he actually grabbed her breasts or not. …well it doesn’t. The Franken photo is a Rorschach test. Schrödinger’s cat. I think he is touching her. Many others think differently. I accept that I can’t know for certain. But what material difference does my opinion make? What does it change? Tweeden thought he was touching her. Franken states he was not. Does that make any difference to how Tweeden feels? We aren’t talking about “the legal” distinction. From the victims point of view its a violation either way. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1661 "2019-07-25T19:55:57Z")
Like I said, lack of nuance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=82) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=84)