# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 87
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1722 "2019-07-26T17:37:23Z")
Picking up from my last post, not directed at any one Doper: Constrast Sen. Bob Menendez. Accused of corruption crimes. Trial happens. Unanimous decision could not be reached by jury. Justice Department drops all charges. Now Franken. Accused of “bad behavior”, but never of actual crimes. No trial even necessary. No ethics investigation. Effectively booted from Senate by minority leader. Which seems more in keeping with our ideals? That whole innocent until proven guilty thing. Now, I would say that in that moment in time it probably was better for the _party_ that Franken go. Especially given the Tweeden photo and _some_ people’s tendency to see something like that, make a snap decision and just go along with throwing Franken out on his ass. That is putting party above one person’s career. But over time, this precedent could lead to what I’ve said earlier: our voting system being rendered moot. And yes, this would have to be the end result of a long series of unfortunate events. Given what Trump’s being allowed to get away with these days, I fear that this process would be quite a bit shorter now than for something similar that may have happened before he was elected. In any case, _that_ is putting party above country and is certainly, obviously, the wrong path to take. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1723 "2019-07-26T17:44:47Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > The picture is certainly evidence. If he wasn’t a Senator, the picture would be evidence of a severe case of sexual harassment in the workplace. Furthermore, the Democratic Party is entirely within its rights to ask for a Senator’s resignation for any reason. In this case, the optics of an ethics case would have been uncomfortable at best AND led by Republicans to boot. I agree. It’s evidence. So why not give him a chance to defend himself?! And yes, it is within the rights of the party to ask a senator to resign. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to ask him for whatever damn reason they please. Would you not be pissed if the party asked your senator to leave for a reason you disagree with, given that you voted for him and don’t think he did anything wrong? Does you vote mean no more than that, that the party can just willy-nilly throw someone out like that? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1724 "2019-07-26T17:53:50Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Now Franken. Accused of “bad behavior”, but never of actual crimes. No trial even necessary. No ethics investigation. Effectively booted from Senate by minority leader. Again, that was _Franken’s_ choice. Franken could have dug in his heels and insisted on an investigation and there would have been one. Nobody denied him that investigation, he just took a knee. Which it seems he regrets now, but oh well - we all make decisions we regret in retrospect. I simply can’t get worked up about that. If Schumer had moved to formally censure Franken and strip him of his office while denying him any formal investigation, _that_ would have been an injustice. But just putting pressure on him? That’s a fair play, because… > [@](#): > > Now, I would say that in that moment in time it probably was better for the _party_ that Franken go. Which is Schumer’s job to prioritize. Franken screwed the pooch. Whether he is a handsy creep or just an oblivious space invader he ended up putting himself into a compromised position. Then freaked out by the accusations and his caucus starting to turn on him based on those bad optics, he bowed out. He needn’t have, but he did - probably to his party’s benefit. So there may have been harm, but there was no foul there. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1725 "2019-07-26T18:22:57Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Again, that was _Franken’s_ choice. Franken could have dug in his heels and insisted on an investigation and there would have been one. Nobody denied him that investigation, he just took a knee. Which it seems he regrets now, but oh well - we all make decisions we regret in retrospect. > > I simply can’t get worked up about that. If Schumer had moved to formally censure Franken and strip him of his office while denying him any formal investigation, _that_ would have been an injustice. But just putting pressure on him? That’s a fair play, because… > > Which is Schumer’s job to prioritize. Franken screwed the pooch. Whether he is a handsy creep or just an oblivious space invader he ended up putting himself into a compromised position. Then freaked out by the accusations and his caucus starting to turn on him based on those bad optics, he bowed out. He needn’t have, but he did - probably to his party’s benefit. > > So there may have been harm, but there was no foul there. So are you happy that someone who got away with corruption is still a Senator but the the guy who was handsy ten years ago is gone? That’s where you want your party? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1726 "2019-07-26T18:25:12Z")
But, again, let’s say we have an investigation which is iiandyiiii’s go to position. When it comes out that the woman says X happened and the man denies that X happened, what do we do then? If the answer is that we listen carefully and determine credibility, then what we are saying is that the best liar will win. As I said, I am uncomfortable with sexual abusers getting away with crimes or bad behavior. I am more uncomfortable with a society that denies basic due process and a presumption of innocence. So what do we do? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1727 "2019-07-26T18:49:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > One of the fundamental disagreements here is about our overall view of society, perhaps. I think we’re in dire straits - we live in a society that generally excuses sexual assault and rape by powerful men, and generally treats victims and survivors like garbage. This is just barely starting to change. > > I want abusers and rapists to be utterly terrified. I want them shitting their pants every single day. On this issue, I see us as a society in a continuous trauma emergency situation, and I intend to act with this in mind until the emergency is over (i.e. until victims and survivors are treated decently, and no powerful men are mostly immune to consequences for sexual assault and rape). > > If I thought we lived in a remotely fair society, I’d probably act differently. Overreacting is reminiscent of the inquisition where at some point the punishment far exceeds the crime. You see this with social media and accusations of non-PC speech. At some point there is going to be a nasty backlash to the overreaction. That said, there is nothing to be done because appeals to emotion seem to be far more profitable than proportionate responses. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1728 "2019-07-26T19:01:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Overreacting is reminiscent of the inquisition where at some point the punishment far exceeds the crime. You see this with social media and accusations of non-PC speech. At some point there is going to be a nasty backlash to the overreaction. > > That said, there is nothing to be done because appeals to emotion seem to be far more profitable than proportionate responses. I don’t believe there have been any circumstances so far in which the “punishment” for a prominent abuser/harasser/rapist is worse than the crime. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1729 "2019-07-26T19:03:08Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But, again, let’s say we have an investigation which is iiandyiiii’s go to position. When it comes out that the woman says X happened and the man denies that X happened, what do we do then? If the answer is that we listen carefully and determine credibility, then what we are saying is that the best liar will win. We’re not even close to here yet. We don’t yet actually treat accusations seriously and accusers with respect and decency, for the most part. When we get there, then we can worry about the possibility of a rash of false accusations. I’m not going to worry about that right now. > [@](#): > > As I said, I am uncomfortable with sexual abusers getting away with crimes or bad behavior. I am more uncomfortable with a society that denies basic due process and a presumption of innocence. So what do we do? Treat accusations seriously, and treat accusers, victims, and survivors with decency and respect. We’re not there yet, though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1730 "2019-07-26T19:10:47Z")
Punishing evil doers in the public space is a fine thing to do. There are times that justice requires accountability. This goes far beyond Franken. For most problems that occur endemically across systems though efforts to identify bad people to blame and to punish fails to improve circumstances overall. You want to fix the systems. You want good workers to learn what mistakes they are making and how to stop making them. You work to identify patterns that can be addressed. Finding a few to blame and creating a culture in which fear is the operational principle, including fear of reporting not only for your sake but out of concern that the consequence for the one who did something wrong, may feel good to some. But it fails to improve the systems. This is basic QI stuff. Not rocket science. The she said he said for most of what occurs is more the opportunity to learn and improve for the individual and the system than it is a chance to punish. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1731 "2019-07-26T20:50:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We’re not even close to here yet. We don’t yet actually treat accusations seriously and accusers with respect and decency, for the most part. When we get there, then we can worry about the possibility of a rash of false accusations. I’m not going to worry about that right now. > > Treat accusations seriously, and treat accusers, victims, and survivors with decency and respect. We’re not there yet, though. If we aren’t there yet then why do I have three appellate cases for three guys doing the rest of their lives in prison over sexual assault allegations where there is no corroborating evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1732 "2019-07-26T21:02:26Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > If we aren’t there yet then why do I have three appellate cases for three guys doing the rest of their lives in prison over sexual assault allegations where there is no corroborating evidence? Are you suggesting that the principle of “innocent until proven guilty” is one that applies applied in every situation where there are possible repercussions at stake? I think we all agree that it’s a fine principle for culpability in criminal cases. I do not agree that it is a reasonable standard for dealing with employment of accused sexual harassers, suspected thieves, or people perceived as being dishonest. I very strongly disagree that it is the standard that should be applied to possible wrongdoing by those in a position of public trust. ETA: And it sounds like a jury unanimously concluded that your clients were lying. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1733 "2019-07-26T21:02:43Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’m not surprised you think that because you are pretty unreasonable on this subject. And I’m not surprised to see your obvious and complete disregard for a women’s disgust and dismay at being sexually humiliated while sleeping by Al Franken, given your insistance that your other hero, Louis “Peek-A-Boo” C.K., was unfairly maligned and in fact was the real victim in _his_ “Me Too” saga, because the women he exposed himself to couldn’t take a joke. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1734 "2019-07-26T21:20:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you suggesting that the principle of “innocent until proven guilty” is one that applies applied in every situation where there are possible repercussions at stake? > > I think we all agree that it’s a fine principle for culpability in criminal cases. I do not agree that it is a reasonable standard for dealing with employment of accused sexual harassers, suspected thieves, or people perceived as being dishonest. I very strongly disagree that it is the standard that should be applied to possible wrongdoing by those in a position of public trust. > > ETA: And it sounds like a jury unanimously concluded that your clients were lying. I’m not taking any position on the first part. But if a jury determined that, didn’t they believe the person who told the best story? Are people really a good lie detector? Or should we have hard evidence? That’s my complaint about a “he said, she said” determination. And keep in mind that we have groups that tell women that they were raped when they initially deny it: cops, prosecutors, domestic violence advocates, and counselors. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1735 "2019-07-26T21:31:28Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > If we aren’t there yet then why do I have three appellate cases for three guys doing the rest of their lives in prison over sexual assault allegations where there is no corroborating evidence? Those guys are probably not wealthy or powerful. And such cases are relatively rare, in my understanding, compared to the frequency of sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1736 "2019-07-26T21:52:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Those guys are probably not wealthy or powerful. And such cases are relatively rare, in my understanding, compared to the frequency of sexual assault. And so? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1737 "2019-07-26T22:03:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Those guys are probably not wealthy or powerful. And such cases are relatively rare, in my understanding, compared to the frequency of sexual assault. > [@Scumpup](#): > > And so? Yeah, what does this mean? Rich people should be equally imprisoned by uncorroborated allegations? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1738 "2019-07-26T22:25:15Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Yeah, what does this mean? Rich people should be equally imprisoned by uncorroborated allegations? No, that rich people are largely immune to accusations of sexual assault or rape, except in unusual circumstances (all of which make the news). This is has finally started to change, but only very recently, and we still have a long way to go. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1739 "2019-07-26T22:37:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, that rich people are largely immune to accusations of sexual assault or rape, except in unusual circumstances (all of which make the news). This is has finally started to change, but only very recently, and we still have a long way to go. How are they immune? If I’m a young girl, I get all kinds of media attention if I say that Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Cory Booker, Mitch McConnell, or Jeff Sessions raped me. How are rich people immune? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1740 "2019-07-26T22:39:14Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How are they immune? If I’m a young girl, I get all kinds of media attention if I say that Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Cory Booker, Mitch McConnell, or Jeff Sessions raped me. How are rich people immune? Very unlikely that any of them actually face justice. Trump has been accused, credibly, by multiple women, along with bragging about sexual assault, with no consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1741 "2019-07-26T23:29:38Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Again, that was _Franken’s_ choice. Yes. But that’s not point. On Nov 30 the Senate Ethics Committee announced a _preliminary_ investigation into the allegations. Schumer did not ask Franken to resign at that time. He only did that on Dec 6, the day the final two allegations surfaced. Perhaps he saw those two as the final straws. Who knows. But he had a choice at that point. One was to take the easy (or admittedly, the politically astue) way out. The other was to tell Franken that it would not be fair for him to take any action at that point, that a _full_ investigation should take place, and that he, Schumer would defend this idea this to the other Democratic caucus members. I think he unfairly sold Franken out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=86) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=88)