# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 88
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1742 "2019-07-26T23:32:25Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I’m not taking any position on the first part. You have taken a position on the first part. You said similar things about the Kavenaugh nomination. In a thread about Franken, you raised this issue of “innocent until proven guilty” as though it has something to do with what’s being discussed; so one can fairly conclude that you’re implying that the same standard should apply to Franken. If you don’t think “innocent until proven guilty” should apply to Kavenaugh and Franken, just say so. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1743 "2019-07-27T02:53:57Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > What the fuck difference does it make if he’s getting sexual pleasure from it? Why are you parsing this like there’s some acceptable degree of taking a picture of an unconscious woman while grabbing her tits? There isn’t, unless she consents. Show me anywhere in my post where I defended what Franken did. > [@Me](#): > > Let’s all take a good look at the photo, just to refresh our memories. > > Is Franken invading her personal space? Certainly, and most definitely without her consent. Is Franken grabbing boobs? Looks to me like right hand is, left hand barely touching. Is he deriving sexual pleasure from it? I don’t think so. > > In 2006 Al Franken was a comedian with aspirations to political office. He often provided smart, witty commentary on current events, but he also was known for stupid, silly, juvenile humor. > > Al Franken was playing a naughty boy. He’s not the first comedian (or the first politician, for that matter) to cross the line between humor and poor taste, and to have his career blow up because of it. Nor will he be the last. Does the punishment fit the crime? That’s not for me to say. **Sunny Daze** , how about directing your outrage at people who actually say something outrageous. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1744 "2019-07-27T04:53:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You have taken a position on the first part. > > You said similar things about the Kavenaugh nomination. In a thread about Franken, you raised this issue of “innocent until proven guilty” as though it has something to do with what’s being discussed; so one can fairly conclude that you’re implying that the same standard should apply to Franken. > > If you don’t think “innocent until proven guilty” should apply to Kavenaugh and Franken, just say so. Fair enough. I don’t think there needs to be a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard for a firing or a loss of an opportunity, but there still should be a presumption of innocence. Why should any accuser have a presumption in his or her favor? And I further have a problem with convicting, firing, or otherwise taking action against someone based upon uncorroborated allegations. Why believe person X instead of person Y? I understand that means that some sexual assaults will go unpunished, but what is the alternative? Having a society where I can get you fired or put you in prison by finding a single person who can tell a story which does not defy the laws of physics and is therefore “credible”? I think that is simply an astounding proposition in any country that values freedom. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1745 "2019-07-27T05:02:41Z")
> [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > And I’m not surprised to see your obvious and complete disregard for a women’s disgust and dismay at being sexually humiliated while sleeping by Al Franken, given your insistance that your other hero, Louis “Peek-A-Boo” C.K., was unfairly maligned and in fact was the real victim in _his_ “Me Too” saga, because the women he exposed himself to couldn’t take a joke. Did I insist that? I don’t remember that and think you might be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1746 "2019-07-27T08:37:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He was treated fairly, IMO. Being asked to resign after such circumstances is entirely “fair”, IMO. Even if he only did what he said he did, and what he had a photo taken of, that’s enough to resign, IMO. We can find senators who have not pretended to grope a sleeping woman on camera. Strongly agree. And we did find one, by the name of Tina Smith. I think a lot of this discussion is a bit disrespectful to her. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe there have been any circumstances so far in which the “punishment" for a prominent abuser/harasser/rapist is worse than the crime. Whoa, strongly disagree with you on that one. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Those guys are probably not wealthy or powerful. And such cases are relatively rare, in my understanding, compared to the frequency of sexual assault. Falsely reported rapes are much more common than false reporting of other violent crimes. One such false report ruined the life of my best friend. > [@DSeid](#): > > Seriously dude. That is always a decision to be made by the voters. You want only people with no baggage, nothing that could be construed as baggage, who have made no mistakes, had no episodes of poor judgement, then vote for one of those people, assuming you can find them. IF he ever runs again (again, _please_ not now) then it will be up to the voters in MN to decide if they think his baggage is disqualifying or not. Not you, not me, not even other Senators. I would disagree somewhat with your premise regardless, but I am wondering why you are placing me in a different category than “the voters in MN”. Maybe you missed the first post I made in this thread? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I played a small role in Franken’s ouster. On the [senate.gov](http://senate.gov) website where they verify you are a Minnesota resident (or at least that your computer or phone is located within the state’s boundaries) before being allowed to send feedback, I told him I was a longtime supporter but that he should resign. In case that’s not crystal clear, I _am_ a Minnesota voter. Furthermore, in fact, I am a [“DFLer”](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/DFLer), and I contacted officials of the state party—who know me as a dedicated door knocker—to express the same opinion and ask that they pass it up the line. Maybe it was a drop in the bucket, but I at least attempted to be the straw that broke the camel’s back. So even if you don’t think it’s up to other people in this thread (maybe), or up to his fellow Democratic senators (hard disagree with you about that), you have to admit that it is at least in some small part up to me. > [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > And I’m not surprised to see your obvious and complete disregard for a women’s disgust and dismay at being sexually humiliated while sleeping by Al Franken, given your insistance that your other hero, Louis “Peek-A-Boo” C.K., was unfairly maligned and in fact was the real victim in _his_ “Me Too” saga, because the women he exposed himself to couldn’t take a joke. I agree that Louis CK got a raw deal. Am I the only one who sees that this is totally different? If Al Franken were canceled from doing comedy anymore, I would be defending him right along with others. The US Senate is just so dramatically different from the comedy world. But if you want to move from the latter to the former, you have to be judged by the standards of the former, not the latter. There are very few comics I can think of who would be suitable for the US Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1747 "2019-07-27T15:15:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe there have been any circumstances so far in which the “punishment” for a prominent abuser/harasser/rapist is worse than the crime. You make statements along these lines quite frequently, such as the idea that possible victims of sexual abuse are most always treated poorly and that the alleged/convicted abusers are usually let off easy. Would you say that is accurate? If so, on what do you base this? Thanks. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1748 "2019-07-27T15:46:56Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > You make statements along these lines quite frequently, such as the idea that possible victims of sexual abuse are most always treated poorly and that the alleged/convicted abusers are usually let off easy. Would you say that is accurate? If so, on what do you base this? Thanks. 🙂 Yes – based on my understanding of the statistics of sexual assault and rape, and based on discussions and the words of victims and survivors. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1749 "2019-07-27T18:18:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > … I would disagree somewhat with your premise regardless, but I am wondering why you are placing me in a different category than “the voters in MN”. Maybe you missed the first post I made in this thread? > > In case that’s not crystal clear, I _am_ a Minnesota voter. Furthermore, in fact, I am a [“DFLer”](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/DFLer), and I contacted officials of the state party—who know me as a dedicated door knocker—to express the same opinion and ask that they pass it up the line. Maybe it was a drop in the bucket, but I at least attempted to be the straw that broke the camel’s back. > > So even if you don’t think it’s up to other people in this thread (maybe), or up to his fellow Democratic senators (hard disagree with you about that), you have to admit that it is at least in some small part up to me … Oh you voted him out of office? This was a voters’ choice? In lieu of losing an election there were mass protests of Minnesotans demanding he leave? Even a large majority of voters wanting him to resign in their Minnesotan quiet way? No. There was no majority of voters wanting him to resign. In fact more thought his resignation was a bad choice than supported it. [http://m.startribune.com/majority-of-minnesotans-believe-franken-accusations-but-fewer-think-he-should-have-quit/469451383/](http://m.startribune.com/majority-of-minnesotans-believe-franken-accusations-but-fewer-think-he-should-have-quit/469451383/) This was a decision made by others than those who elected him for … reasons. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1750 "2019-07-27T20:33:48Z")
Whatever. You were clearly telling me I’m not a MN voter, when I am. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1751 "2019-07-27T20:48:23Z")
He probably doesn’t give a shit whether you’re a Minnesota voter. His point was that Franken wasn’t voted out and polls showed that the majority wanted him to stay. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1752 "2019-07-27T21:22:51Z")
I can’t read the article as I am past my monthly limit, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Republicans wanted him to stay and act as a millstone around DFLers’ necks (or just don’t want to lay down the precedent that this kind of thing should be punished). I would be more impressed by a strong show of support from the DFL. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1753 "2019-07-27T22:03:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I can’t read the article as I am past my monthly limit, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Republicans wanted him to stay and act as a millstone around DFLers’ necks (or just don’t want to lay down the precedent that this kind of thing should be punished). I would be more impressed by a strong show of support from the DFL. Real people don’t do that, in fact they do the opposite. Just because Franken hanging around would have been delightful for Republican national strategists is not a reason a regular person would answer the poll so strategically. Real people would generally be more disposed to an opposing member resigning, not less. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1754 "2019-07-27T23:02:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > He probably doesn’t give a shit whether you’re a Minnesota voter. His point was that Franken wasn’t voted out and polls showed that the majority wanted him to stay. I really give not that shit, but I do readily admit that I had not recalled Slacker was a Minnesotan voter So to the point regarding IF he ever runs again (again, please not now) then it will be up to the voters in MN to decide, _including Slacker’s one vote input_, if they, in aggregate, think his baggage is disqualifying or not. I don’t give a shit about it but clearly Slacker gives so much shit about it that we need a plunger, so my apologies, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1755 "2019-07-27T23:12:43Z")
So virtually all Minnesota Republicans said he should resign, and virtually all DFLers that he should not? I am almost the only DFLer who saw it as Schumer, Gillibrand, et al did? I rather doubt that. ETA: As an active DFLer, my input should be more than “one vote”. Particularly since I would not vote for a Republican opponent and would not wish to see a divisive DFL primary. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1756 "2019-07-27T23:57:01Z")
Furthermore, everyone who opines about presidential candidates also only has “one vote”, and if they don’t live in a swing state it doesn’t count for much. That should not be the standard for weighing in. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1757 "2019-07-27T23:58:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So virtually all Minnesota Republicans said he should resign, and virtually all DFLers that he should not? I am almost the only DFLer who saw it as Schumer, Gillibrand, et al did? I rather doubt that… Wtf? Is that a response to me? I said “generally more disposed” not “you are all partisan zombies”. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1758 "2019-07-28T03:09:25Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: As an active DFLer, my input should be more than “one vote”. Particularly since I would not vote for a Republican opponent and would not wish to see a divisive DFL primary. Your input should be as much as any other member of the Minnesota DFL, which is one vote. And the only way to avoid a “divisive” primary is for a candidate to be unopposed. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1759 "2019-07-28T03:21:42Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Fair enough. I don’t think there needs to be a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard for a firing or a loss of an opportunity, but there still should be a presumption of innocence. Why should any accuser have a presumption in his or her favor? > > And I further have a problem with convicting, firing, or otherwise taking action against someone based upon uncorroborated allegations. Why believe person X instead of person Y? I understand that means that some sexual assaults will go unpunished, but what is the alternative? Having a society where I can get you fired or put you in prison by finding a single person who can tell a story which does not defy the laws of physics and is therefore “credible”? > > I think that is simply an astounding proposition in any country that values freedom. So let’s say that you are looking for a babysitter, and there a rumors that the teenager down the street has smacked a few kids for no reason whatsoever. No hard evidence, just some people saying what they heard. You still hire that babysitter in the name of “valuing freedom?” ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1760 "2019-07-28T22:33:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So let’s say that you are looking for a babysitter, and there a rumors that the teenager down the street has smacked a few kids for no reason whatsoever. No hard evidence, just some people saying what they heard. > > You still hire that babysitter in the name of “valuing freedom?” That’s a poor analogy: the job of babysitter is to be alone with vulnerable persons who would be helpless to defend themselves from attack. The job of Senator is to be in the company of a bunch of other Senators who are, by law, adults. A better analogy: would you hire the teenager about whom rumors have been floated to a road-cleaning crew made up of adults? …Well, you might, since you might suspect that the rumors were invented and spread by malicious persons. And after all, the teen won’t be alone with vulnerable persons at any point. So why not let the teen demonstrate good character, if he or she can do so? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1761 "2019-07-29T00:17:28Z")
It wasn’t an analogy. Ravenman was just challenging how far he was willing to go for “freedom” when it was actually a personal decision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=87) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=89)