Out of curiosity, what makes her story more credible than his? Is the photograph credible evidence of the story about the kiss? Franken claims to remember the skit differently. Is it impossible to believe that the photograph is an example of a quite objectionable joke, but not actual physical contact or threat?
How did Franken get this reputation with you? I’ve had a hard time envisioning him as anything but a clown (admittedly, I haven’t tried very hard), but what has made him “the wonkiest member of Congress since Rush Holt” in your eyes?
The radio show he hosted in Minnesota.
Source: Paul Krugman: [INDENT][INDENT] Al Franken’s dirty secret is that … he’s a big policy wonk.
I used to go on Franken’s radio show, all ready to be jocular — and what he wanted to talk about was the arithmetic of Social Security, or the structure of Medicare Part D.
In fact, the only elected official I know who’s wonkier than Al Franken is Rush Holt, my congressman — and he used to be the assistant director of Princeton’s plasma physics lab. (The campaign’s bumper stickers read, “My Congressman IS a rocket scientist.”) [/INDENT][/INDENT]
Minor note but I’m pretty sure Rush Holt is retired now (from politics at least).
Don’t be so sure. But that was SNL, and we’re talking about Al Franken. Two completely different things.
And just to be clear, I’m not saying he was in the right, but let’s not go overboard about what is and what is not involved in a stage kiss.
You’re really reaching here, andy. A great many stage kisses involved “grabbing the head”. I’m at a total loss as to why you would say something so nonsensical. Are we now going to chastise some guy because he grabbed a woman’s head during a “stage kiss”?
Understood! I apologize for giving you that impression. I’m describing to you my reasoning behind taking others (not you) to task, for attacking the victim. (For the record, I typed this before I saw the “re education camp” bit, which seems pretty shitty to me, but OK).
I think that everything you’re saying makes sense. I am not calling for Franken to resign, because I don’t know if I think he should or not. What I think is important is the consistent theme that runs across all of these harassment and assault stories, which is that, in my opinion, we should be less concerned about whether he might have thought he had her consent, and more concerned about whether, taking all of the facts in their totality, we think what he did was above the line or not.
As described by the allegations, he manufactured a situation where he wouldn’t have a good sense of whether there was consent, because somebody could very reasonably not make a point of saying “just in case you’re about to stick your tongue down my throat, I expressly decline the implicit offer your intentions create,” even if that is exactly how they feel. I think that if somebody comes out and says:
We should not look at that and say, well, we can imagine under the circumstances that he might have thought something different was going on. We should look at that and say, OK people, the rule here is after this is you don’t kiss them, and certainly you don’t put your tongue in their mouth.
And I think where it comes out that somebody may have acted like that, we should all say “yeah, sounds fucked,” not “well wait, it’s not beyond a reasonable doubt yet, so here are all of the reasons I can think of why this woman might be a liar.” I think that’s bad for the world. But for sure, I also think it would also be bad for the world if the amount of information we have here was above the quantum of proof that we needed before throwing anybody in jail.
Oh come on. Her account: She said he wanted to do a private rehearsal. She felt weird about it, but said yes anyway (which doesn’t mean she consents to everything). And he stuck his tongue into her mouth. Not because the skit called for tongue-kissing like your link, but for some other reason. That this was just meant as a normal rehearsal isn’t credible to me.
Not the way she described it.
But this kind of nitpicking is really disappointing. What she described was not a normal rehearsal, and was a violation of consent. There needs to be zero tolerance for violations of consent, both in political parties and in society at large. Violating consent, even in ways that aren’t sexual intercourse, is very wrong and needs to be treated as such.
He didn’t tell a story, so I’m not doing any kind of weighing of one vs. another. I’m taking what I’ve heard, and deciding what I think is appropriate to say about it.
No, the photograph has so little bearing on whether or not the kiss happened as to be almost zero.
No, it’s not impossible to believe. I’m reasonably sure that’s what he thought he was doing.
Uggh. This change in society – absolutely zero tolerance for violating consent, to the point that violators will be looked at like child molesters are now – is coming. It will arrive. I don’t know exactly when, but I strongly believe that we’re (finally) headed in that direction, which is absolutely the morally correct direction.
But I’m disgusted at the resistance to this progress from so many on all sides.
Gross. Grody, disgusting, blechhhh.
Her acceptance of his apology is determinative within their relationship.
Regarding his political future, the rest of us get to make up our own minds on how we feel, what we believe the Democratic Party should ask of him, and what he should do.
She isn’t an infant, but neither are we. She doesn’t get to decide for all of us, just for herself.
That’s a dangerous viewpoint. There are many shades of gray in behavior.
Yes, he now leads the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which publishes Science, that field’s preeminent journal.
Separately, my overarching point is not to rush to judgment within 72 hours of a story breaking. I can imagine unflattering scenarios for Tweeden and reprehensible scenarios for Franken given the facts at hand (neither probable IMHO). Which is part of the reason why I advocate turning the situation over to the committee. Furthermore methinks such public airings are a relatively good, fair, and efficacious way to raise the bar, given an imperfect world.
Look closely at the picture. His open fingers cast shadows because…they are at a distance from her actual person.
If the fingers rested on her, they would not cast a visible shadow. Which leads to Franken pantomiming something outrageous, that he would not do!..while taking care that he doesn’t!
I submit that “grope” must involve direct and physical contact. Wild-ass shit, I know, but try the idea out for a minute…
It’s certainly possible that he’s not touching her in the picture. It’s also true that if he’s not touching her, then that’s better than if he were touching her. Consensus on those points.
Let’s just assume that he’s not touching her. If the same picture were shown to you, and it was Eric Trump doing it, and you heard that the same woman also told the same story about the kiss, where would you come down on that one? You’d still want to know why she was so afraid of a weenie like that that she couldn’t say no, would you; still want to point out his lack of formal authority, and still want to point out the good service he was doing for our boys over there?
I’d think, based on the preponderance of the evidence, that Eric was an asshole overgrown fratboy.
If a conservative comedian did it, I’d cut him a little slack since jokes do misfire now and then.
If a former comedian/current congressman did it, I’d call for an ethics investigation since I’d like to raise the bar on asshole behavior, including the stuff linked to by Snowboarder Bo.
If a bunch of women came forward and said something like, “Yeah, this jerk did stuff like this all the time”, I’d check my garage for pitchforks. (Inventory control, you know.)
Exactly. I’ve never acted in as much as a junior high school play, but even I know the difference between a stage kiss and one involving tongue. I’m sure Al Franken did too, and that’s plainly what consent was given for.
I’m right with you there.
Okay, I’m fine with some nuance – what Franken did isn’t as bad as what Trump or Moore are accused of doing. But we still should have zero tolerance for it, and it should be anathema, to the point that even Franken’s level of consent-violation should be disqualifying for high office.
In my book a forced kiss (if the allegation is true) is worse than a groping and worse than what Louis CK did-masturbating in front of women with their consent but even if you believe Louis CK did something without consent, he did not touch the women. A tongue kiss exchanges fluids and can transmit disease.
The grope allegation is from the kiss, not the picture. It seems like you are being deliberately obtuse. Do you really not see a problem with using a sleeping woman as an unknowing prop for a sex joke picture?
So, like RTFirefly, you believe that before taking someone’s picture, consent should be gained? Especially, I presume, if that picture is going to portray them negatively or as the butt of a joke?