I have trouble believing that victims of rape or sexual assault in other countries are less traumatized than American victims, at least not without some sort of evidence.
This isn’t about restrictive attitudes toward sex at all, I don’t think. Al Franken isn’t alleged to have committed the sin of fornication. That’s not the issue.
It’s about sex in that the kind of assault that’s alleged is usually done for the gratification of the person doing it, but the reason it would be bad for him to have done it isn’t that sex is gross. Society isn’t shocked and horrified by the idea of making out with people.
You’re only supposed to do it with people who want to do it. It’s the same rule that applies to WWF style wrestling, jumping out of airplanes, sharing the funds in a bank account, and taking long car trips: not at all weird if you both signed up for it; big problem if one of you didn’t.
I knew it wouldn’t be long before it was misinterpreted. We are in a thread about a kiss that went too far and the demand for a senator to resign. Not a thread about rapists. Let’s keep stuff in context. Please.
You honestly think a woman or a man is scarred for life because of a kiss that didn’t go as expected? The psychological impact which is strongly shaped by society seems disproportionately strong compared to the actual physical impact. Have you been kissed in a way you don’t like? Have you been smacked or hit? Which is worse, physically? I think being smacked is. So why is a kiss too far considered so much more immoral?
I think you’re confusing yourself.
If Al Franken had punched somebody out of nowhere ten years ago, you don’t think that would be a problem for him?
I grew up in a very rough neighborhood. I have a hard time with physical contact being so bad or so highly stigmatized. Did everyone on this board live in a peaceful enclave with no fights?
Now I’m not saying assault is proper. However, I don’t think most minor incidents are anything more than minor.
What I said is literally true. Two unrelated examples, separated by years and describing completely different behavior towards different people in different circumstances does not equal a “pattern”.
Sorry, it just doesn’t.
I cannot give a solid number and if anyone tried to give you one they should be called on it. That’s like asking how many witnesses it will take to convict Defendant-X. The number depends on many things. Not all witnesses are created equal.
We all will have different thresholds of when we decide someone is “guilty” but I suspect if you graphed it you’d get a bell curve. Once out of a standard deviation to one side or the other of center and I think that person has some explaining to do to defend their position.
I never said anything about scarring for life. I’m pretty sure I’d rather be punched, hard, in the face or body (which I have been - I used to box, and I’ve been in fights), than aggressively kissed by someone physically much stronger than me.
Is Franken much stronger than Tweeden?
That’s perfectly valid. I’ve been punched. I’ve also had my genitals very briefly fondled through my shorts by an older man who thought I was interested when I was a teen. I was not interested. Out of the two experiences I’d rather not be punched.
What is the point of all of this?
I mean this particular branch of the discussion, not this whole discussion, or discussion or life in general, although, you know, it’s 2017 and I’m accepting all submissions.
I agree with all of this and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
It has gotten so bad that if you make a statement like, “Well, we have no physical proof and it is her word against his, so let’s not lynch him just yet” then that attitude is wholly unacceptable. We must believe all accusers and pick up the pitchforks, or else we support and encourage the victimization of women.
The parallels between this sensationalism and the Salem Witch Trials are very similar.
I’m in agreement with these posts. I think proportionality matters, and I think if we hold all office holders to an impossibly high standard, we won’t have any quality office holders at all. How many of us can say we don’t have at least one shameful episode in our pasts?
There’s a vast difference, in my opinion, between a man who impulsively cops a furtive feel of a woman’s breast through clothing, and a man who plans out and rapes an 18 month old baby. Who believes the punishment for these two acts should be the same? Neither act is acceptable, but for goodness’ sake.
Similarly, there’s a vast difference between a man who used admittedly very poor judgment in one instance to force a woman to kiss him, then mugged for a camera pretending to grope her, and a man who indulged in a deliberate course of conduct cruising the mall on Friday and Saturday nights with the express intent of molesting and violating underage girls.
Consider too that Al Franken immediately admitted his culpability in his matter and took full responsibility for it, even going so far as to call for an ethics investigation into his own behavior. He appears to be willing to accept whatever punishment is imposed for his act. In criminal cases, that counts for something. Contrast that against Moore, who, in the face of many more allegations, continues to deny having any responsibility. Are these events really the same?
The women all deserve to be believed in the absence of evidence of dissembling; neither man should be excused from their behavior and both deserve punishment for their acts. Should the punishment be exactly equal? I don’t think so.
You’re right, I shouldn’t have assumed she would be traumatized by her experience. In truth I have never, as an adult, been forcibly kissed, I had that experience only as a child in an entirely different context. My relative upsetness about being forcibly kissed as a grown woman would likely be directly related to past trauma and less about the incident itself. I should try to consider more critically that my experience is not the only one.
Around the time I was 17, I was sexually assaulted by a much older date immediately after I told him I wasn’t ready for sex due to my abuse history. He reached out and put my hand on his penis. I was pissed off, but not particularly traumatized, to the point I often forget it happened. Yet there are other sexual experiences arguably consensual that made me feel worse due to the guilt and manipulation involved. So, you never know what a particular person’s vulnerability is going to be.
It bears mentioning, however, that child sexual abuse rates being as high as they appear to be, the odds are good that any given woman or man subjected to such behavior might react more negatively than you think is reasonable. Indeed, people who are abused as kids are more likely to be assaulted later in life. Many women who have been assaulted have experienced that multiple times, which makes them increasingly more vulnerable to traumatization. In fact, soldiers with childhood abuse histories are also more likely to develop PTSD in combat. Trauma tends to compound over the life of an individual.
In other words, neither of us really have any business deciding what is real trauma to any given individual.
No, it’s at least the second time I called you out on the obvious implications of what you said. If you want to deny them go for it, but it’s pretty clear what you were doing with the ‘drunk college students’ defense.
So, I’ve been posting gratuitously in just about every thread on this topic, and I haven’t seen this claim made one single time. What I’ve seen is the statement that, in evaluating an accuser’s credibility, the alleged victim’s behavior shouldn’t be attacked based on what is typical for real victims. Because when you attack alleged victims for behavior that is normal and expected for real victims, you make it that much harder for real victims to come forward. And trust me, it’s already hard enough as it is.
They’re not unrelated or describing completely different behavior, it’s the same “pattern” in both. Woman does something to him that hurts his pride, he goes aggressive on them, stalking and harassing them until he is no longer able to get away with it (either because they are separated or because the police will be called if he doesn’t). Denying the clear and obvious pattern of behavior doesn’t make it magically disappear.
In other words, what I said is right - there is no number that will actually convince you, and you’ll just keep claiming that there are not enough witnesses and/or they’re not credible indefinitely. If it wasn’t right, you could say something like “I don’t know if one more would do it, but five certainly would”.
If a guy seizes an opportunity to stick his tongue in your mouth, there’s milliseconds of time in which to register what is happening and to stop it if unwelcome, and by then it’s a done deal and he got what he wanted - his tongue in your mouth. The morality question concerns using people for acts of gratification when you don’t have their consent. I assume this would apply to people who go around hitting other people for fun; you just don’t see that often.
We have a systemic problem with some men not being able to accept the word No, or respect people’s personal boundaries, or refrain from demeaning, predatory or just plain gross behavior, in pursuit of their own gratification. It’s a popular topic right now as you know, with a lot of complexity. Franken seemed to contrive the opportunity to kiss a woman knowing it would be unwelcome, seized the opportunity, and refused to acknowledge that doing so was wrong. So, about three different kinds of immorality by my count, on a smaller scale than we’re used to seeing, but neatly illustrating the entitlement, gratification, and the power of a perpetrator all the same.
Afaik, no one wants to see him in jail, and no one is arguing that she is scarred for life. But he is a US Senator, and by his own estimation he’s disappointed people with his actions, and it will be painful in the future with that picture circulating to be out there as a voice for women’s causes. He did that to himself; he’s no victim.
And I would never suggest that he is a victim. I’m not sure where one would get that idea from anything I wrote. What I’m saying is that just consequences to an action ought to be proportionate to the harm.
I agree that Franken behaved and may still behave piggishly. Is that sufficient to demand his resignation?
Senno ahkta gammat! How hard is that to understand, anyway?
Well, there’s also a difference between what you described and a man who forcibly kissed a woman, then started a campaign of harassment against her when she resisted, ending by posing sexually humiliating picture with her unconscious body. Oh and he also aggressively followed and harassed backstage a woman who disagreed with him on a show, then used his position to get her home number, then kept calling and threatening her until she said she was going to involve the cops. And that’s just what’s come out so far TODAY, much less all of his history.
Between his admission of using fake apologies and the fact that this is VERY unlikely to be all of the allegations that come out, the Democrats are best served by cutting him loose ASAP. Pretending like it’s all just some minor misunderstanding is not going to lead anywhere good.
Al Franken also has a published book in which he admits that he considered his apology for rape jokes in the 2008 campaign to be a “White Lie”. So it’s doubtful that he’s actually admitting anything, or feels responsible for it, I think he takes this apology as seriously as his other “white lie”