And now for Franken, since I have taken the time to check up on this situation. Okay, the picture proves nothing. I’ll buy that. But the claim of the forced kiss is a huge problem. It very much is resignation worthy.
So, given the evidence up to this point, I would stand by what I said above. If I could, I would not vote for Franken. Hopefully the Democrats would put up another choice. But, if not, given that he’s likely to win, I’d have to vote against him. It sucks voting for someone who I think has the wrong policies, but, unless they are actually a worse person, I can’t see any way around it.
Sure, if they’re both harassers, that’s a push. And there are other things the other guy could do that are worse than sexual harassment.
We’ve got to send the message that sexual harassment is unacceptable. Admonishing in public but not actually punishing him accomplishes nothing. It’s like the censure for Bill Clinton, which was equally pointless.
And if this results in a huge investigation on Capitol Hill and drums people out, great. That’s not a bug, but a feature, just like all the Hollywood types being drummed out right now.
You are quite wrong about this, and I typed up a lengthy post to refute it but decided at the last minute that it would just be too much of a hijack. So I’ll just state that you’re wrong and save the exposition for another time.
See, this right here is how it becomes political. The average conservative would view sexual offenses as a fairly wide range of things calling for an equally wide range of consequence. The left on the other hand tends to go way overboard and behaves as though any offense having to do with sex is the worst thing ever and unquestionably deserving of the loss of entire careers and/or everyone’s vote. I can’t even estimate the number of times I’ve seen, read or heard someone on the left claim that Trump’s over-the-clothes pussy grabbing means that every Republican should completely abandon his or her belief in how the country should be run as a result and instead vote for the candidate who will make Supreme and lower court judicial appointments, propose and champion legislation, issue executive orders, etc., all in direct opposition to the way they feel is best and which will result in what they view as innumerable kinds of harm to the country, simply because Trump bragged about being allowed to put his hands on a woman’s private area because he’s a star.
Is such behavior boorish? Yes! Is it offensive? Yes! Would it be cause for charges to be brought should the woman in question want them to be? Certainly! But it is far from bad enough for half the country to completely abandon their principles and vote for a candidate who will seek to do the exact opposite of what they want in running the country, the consequences of which will reverberate for decades.
Then there’s also the fact that when it comes to sexual offenses, crickets chirp when it comes to the likes of Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy, etc. This also makes it a political issue, as the ire of the left is exponentially greater when Republican is accused of a more minor offense than when a Democrat is accused of a far greater one.
In a nutshell, no, not every sexual offense is unforgivable, and not every sexual offense is worthy of the loss of a career or expulsion from society. It would be amusing if it weren’t so maddening that the same crowd calling for Trump’s head over pussy grabbing were as het up over people who rob, rape, shoot or stab people in the streets or in their own homes. Instead they lobby to restore voting rights to that crowd and do everything they can to get them off via technicalities and lobby for shorter prison sentences and early as possible parole. I’ll guarantee you that getting a knife in your gut or a bullet through your face is far more traumatizing and life-damaging than any less than violent rape sexual offense. So where are your demands that these people be lose their jobs? That they be ostracized from society? That anyone seeking their vote is obviously a deplorable person and should have no role in governing the country?
So yeah, politics plays a huge role in how this issue is playing out, and those of us on the right-hand side of the aisle know that, and it’s why we don’t respond the way you want us to…because we know how to assess and respond to the severity of the offense, and because we know what the response has been in the past when one of your own has been the miscreant.
I would thank you to not invent stances that I have supposedly taken, and more to the point, I would thank you for not sharing those inventions with others. (Feel free to make stuff up about me, as long as you keep it in your own head.)
Well, I’ve been an admirer of Franken for a while, firstly as a comedian, and I agree with his political views so there’s that. Now, if his resigning is what it takes to keep things on an even keel, well, whaddayagonnado … but there are miles of differences between Franken and say Moore. I’m sure this has all been hashed over repeatedly in this thread (I wasn’t able to get to every single post here) but I’d like to point out that if this Franken issue had surfaced absent of all the other sexual harassment shit that’s been raining down, it would be an embarrassing blip on the new cycle and nothing more.
But the current thing is … the way he’s handled it since has been 180 from all the other accused. Who else stepped up, admitted wrong-doing, apologized and accepted ethics probes into his behavior?
So, fine, sucks to be Franken and I kind of figured that this recent wave of women speaking up was going to cast a wide net but that’s probably necessary as well. I can live with all of the fall out if a more enlightened society emerges (or whatever flowery rhetoric we want to go with) but let’s not pretend Al Franken is on a par with child molesters and pussy grabbers and guys who jerk off into potted plants in front of startlets, okay?
Oh becuase it is a message board and what people do on them is comment? Or have I violated the sacred commandment that no foreigner is to make comments on things american or you get upset?
yes indeed. It says very much of the prudish puritanical underlying thinking that an actual physical damage is some how less dangerous than a sexualized touching.
It is the value your society and its not examined puritanism that lays the greater emphasis and renders hyper dramatic on anything with any sexual component… I find it strange. Calling for the political death penalty on this person (I know and care not about his politics)… the reactions mixing the idea of the rape with this subject, it all highlights a cultural-psychological overweight you give to anything touching on a sexual aspect, as a dangerous thing. It is strange to me.
No I get the difference very well. I mocked the american puritianism in that. The over weighted value the american culture puts on some things with a sexual component, it is strange to observe. But it is your culture.
I think the Democrats are in danger of missing a giant opportunity. I think there’s zero chance Franken can be an effective progressive legislator or advocate going forward, even if his apology was good and accepted. From now on he’s the groping Senator. How does that help the Democrats or their agenda? What, we’re afraid that other gropers or harassers might be afraid to run for office? Or others might be afraid to apologize if they get caught?
Fuck em. The concern shouldn’t be about gropers, assaulters, or harassers. The concern should be about other victims and society in general. That not only do we believe credible accusations, but that we will follow up that belief with immediate action. Better the very rare false accusation slips through (in which the accused can come back and be redeemed) than we give the Republicans both another distraction and months of cooperation on an investigation that will be eminently useful to them.
There should be a party with zero tolerance for groping and assault and harassment. It’s obviously not the Republicans, and their continued embrace of the groper in chief. That the Democrats are just not as bad isn’t good enough. We must be better, far better.
By the way, I find your obvious gleeful posts in all this pretty disgusting considering that you supported and continue to support someone who bragged about groping, in addition to having multiple credible accusations against him.
Well, if the Democrats want to go all the way with this there’s a lot more to do than just get rid of anyone accused of harassment.
First and foremost, all Democrats who have had sexual harassment settlements paid out on their behalf by Congress need to be outed.
Moveon.org needs to change their name, since the name was coined because they wanted to “move on” from Clinton’s sexual misconduct. If that’s no longer the way progressives do things, it’s time for a name change.
Gloria Steinem needs to retire. She was chief apologist among feminists for sexual misconduct by powerful Democrats for years. Just watched an old Real Time where she portrayed Clinton’s conduct as “making love” as opposed to “making war”. She should be asked if she still believes it’s better to have a President who mistreats women vs. one who is decent to them but is a shitty President.
The Clintons need to retire and not be invited to campaign for Democrats anymore.
The Kennedy men in general need to go into the dustbin of history section of the Democratic Hall of Fame.
Of course, this is what Democrats have to do if they want to take an absolutist position on this issue. Alternatively, they could go for a more measured response, only kicking out those whose conduct was egregrious and repeated in the past, and proclaim a zero tolerance policy looking forward. There are a lot of old powerful men in Congress. If the truth came out I suspect 75% of the place would have to resign, and a further 75% of the experienced staffmembers.
So we need to get a policy in place here. First, how do you handle unproven accusations? How many do you need before you are assumed guilty? When is there enough evidence to assume it’s just political enemies trying to get rid of somebody? Is an apology for past behavior that wasn’t too egregrious sufficient? Is there a statute of limitations for crimes short of rape or statutory rape? And finally, what kinds of offenses are firing offenses and which are counseling offenses?
In 2017, the natural tendency is for Democrats to let their social justice flag fly and take a dogmatic position. While I can get all behind that going forward, I’d note that this is not how Democrats handled their racism problem or their homophobia problem. Kicking out all the pigs at once, regardless of how long ago their offenses were, would go about as badly for them as if they kicked out every racist in 1964. They will find that it’s just not practical, and the other party is simply not going to follow suit.
You have been here how many years? Don’t you know that by now? You are not permitted to say anything, hold any opinion that makes them uncomortable, otherwise you are “anti-American” and the mods will happily slap you down for triggering them.
I don’t think there’s a missed opportunity. As we’ve already seen in this thread, nutpickers gonna nutpick. Haters of Dems will find examples of defenders or lukewarm censures of Franken and paint that as the typical Democratic position no matter how rare they are.
Which is different from what should be done, which I’m not sure about myself at this point. But I don’t think there can be a political upside from this.
I’m fine with all of your suggestions except #5 – no one needs to go away unless they’ve taken part in abuse or hiding abuse. Having the name Kennedy doesn’t mean one is guilty of any of this.
This is about violations of consent, not being a horndog – are there credible accusations of violation of consent against Ed or JFK? Driving drunk into a river (or whatever) and having someone die is terrible, but it doesn’t fall into this category of violations of consent and bodily autonomy.
perhaps, since it’s not the subject of this thread I won’t get into that aspect of things further. But I do wonder if a better approach might be to just say, “Most of us have been guilty of sin in the past. We were stupid and ignorant and thoughtless. We’re going to do better.”
If it was my call, Franken should stay unless worse stuff comes out. Roy Moore and Donald Trump should go. And all of those payouts by Congress should be made public.
If it all comes out at once, then I could see something like that. A giant “truth and reconciliations” process, with everything revealed and public, no more lies and denials, and clear taking responsibility and apologizing. Hollywood should have a work stoppage for 6 months, IMO, and force this kind of process – something like everyone coming forward, no consequences and reprecussions for accusers, no criminal or civil consequences for admitting guilt (but abusers should all retire from the industry), etc. Government can’t really stop work, but we should still have something like this. This beast in society (meaning this giant problem of sexual assault and abuse) needs to be addressed head on, not just picked at at the edges.
That’s a good idea, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I’m also wondering if rather than rolling back Title IX sexual assault policies on college campuses, we might want to require all professional associations and workplaces, including Congress, to adopt similar processes.
Wait–no criminal or civil consequences for admitting guilt? I’m not at all convinced that’s a reasonable approach. It’s gonna come across like men in power are above the law.