Now, Al Franken

[Bijou_Drains]

What does his support of working class families and ordinary people have to do with this incident? (Or him not being a racist? )

[iiandyiiii]

@HurricaneDitka

I imagine that this post would be heartily endorsed by Gloria Steinem if she were aware of it.

Says the guy who continues to support a guy who bragged about groping, with multiple credible allegations of sexual assault against him.

[HurricaneDitka]

@iiandyiiii

Says the guy who continues to support a guy who bragged about groping, with multiple credible allegations of sexual assault against him.

If that guy (or I) were the topic of this thread, I wouldn’t mind having a discussion with you about it. But he is (/ I am) not, and I’d hate to be responsible for derailing this delightful thread.

[iiandyiiii]

@HurricaneDitka

If that guy were the topic of this thread, I wouldn’t mind having a discussion with you about it. But he’s not, and I’d hate to be responsible for derailing this delightful thread.

Then you’ll forgive me for assuming that you care about sticking it to Democrats far, far more than stopping sexual assault. At least, by your posts.

[asahi]

@Bijou_Drains

What does his support of working class families and ordinary people have to do with this incident? (Or him not being a racist? )

It may have more to do with this incident than you think – or it may not. The behavior, the act requires condemnation. The person deserves to receive condemnation for this act. The person as a whole may or may not deserve or require more forceful censure. I will reserve judgment.

[HurricaneDitka]

@iiandyiiii

Then you’ll forgive me for assuming that you care about sticking it to Democrats far, far more than stopping sexual assault. At least, by your posts.

Because I didn’t play your off-topic whataboutism game? :rolleyes:

[iiandyiiii]

@HurricaneDitka

Because I didn’t play your off-topic whataboutism game? :rolleyes:

I took my opinion for your posts to your Pit thread. If you want to continue, feel free to go there.

[HurricaneDitka]

@iiandyiiii

I took my opinion for your posts to your Pit thread. If you want to continue, feel free to go there.

That’s fine. I strive to avoid the Pit. Now, back to your regularly-scheduled gotchas and Franken-bashing.

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

nm

[iiandyiiii]

@HurricaneDitka

That’s fine. I strive to avoid the Pit. Now, back to your regularly-scheduled gotchas and Franken-bashing.

Enjoy. I’d love to hear you explain how you can justify continuing to support a bragger-about-groping with several credible allegations of sexual assault against him in one of the many other threads about the subject, if you can pull yourself away from bashing Democrats.

[HurricaneDitka]

@iiandyiiii

Enjoy. I’d love to hear you explain how you can justify continuing to support a bragger-about-groping with several credible allegations of sexual assault against him in one of the many other threads about the subject, if you can pull yourself away from bashing Democrats.

PM sent.

[Tee]

@octopus

Accountability? Sure. If I had a problem with a particular incident I’d have dealt with it then. I don’t think accountability means everyone with a possible transgression in life needs to fear eventually being a pariah. Your accusation that I think people should be able to fondle teenagers habitually without consent is over the top. I can’t help that nuance and a gradient of responses doesn’t strike you as rational behavior in an imperfect world.

I apologize, that’s why I said it “may not matter” to you - that was not clear. It’s still not clear. But the mechanism being used to hold people accountable for sexual assaults is the process that you’re speaking out against, one (usually old) revelation after another. I wish we had a better one but right now this is it, and all things considered it’s not a bad thing, since it seems like your guy and my guy got free passes. :dubious:

The current process is ripe for abuses, and I expect it will be used stupidly at times by people with grudges and we need to be discerning. I’m fine with that.

[asahi]

@HurricaneDitka

PM sent.

Oh come on, man. PM?

[HurricaneDitka]

@asahi

Oh come on, man. PM?

I detest the Pit, and don’t want to derail this thread. He persisted in asking, and so I felt I should answer him, but it felt a bit self-aggrandizing to start a thread about myself in IMHO or MPSIMS, and it definitely didn’t feel like GD material, so a PM seemed like the best option. I’ll tell you what though, just so that you don’t feel left out, iiandyiiii has my permission to post the PM in the Pit thread or wherever else he feels is appropriate and you can all have fun tearing it apart there.

[octopus]

@Tee

I apologize, that’s why I said it “may not matter” to you - that was not clear. It’s still not clear. But the mechanism being used to hold people accountable for sexual assaults is the process that you’re speaking out against, one (usually old) revelation after another. I wish we had a better one but right now this is it, and all things considered it’s not a bad thing, since it seems like your guy and my guy got free passes. :dubious:

The current process is ripe for abuses, and I expect it will be used stupidly at times by people with grudges and we need to be discerning. I’m fine with that.

The process I am speaking out about is uncontrollable and the messages and opinions that resonate online and other forms of mass media are the ones with the least nuance. That’s dangerous for society. Here is something that the Europeans are doing that I find to be very wise in many ways. Right to be forgotten - Wikipedia

[Sherrerd]

@Jimmy_Chitwood

Have you seen discussion here and elsewhere of the facts that victims of assault extraordinarily commonly do not immediately report an assault to anyone, and that fear of career reprisal is an extraordinarily common reason not to report immediately, and already rejected them out of hand in making your credibility determination? Or would you like to reject them now?

If my “credibility determination” included the opinion that because I have doubts about Tweeden’s story, there should therefore be no investigation of Franken’s conduct—IF I’d made that argument, then you’d have grounds for your evident indignation.

However, I said the opposite:

@Sherrerd

A full investigation is called for.

An investigation is required. Franken has volunteered his cooperation for an investigation.
In the investigation, we might learn why Tweeden told no one about her experience kissing Franken until several weeks had gone by. Perhaps she was terrified by the experience. Perhaps the experience brought up traumatic memories. It could be any number of things. But as of now, we don’t know why she didn’t mention it:

In Tweeden’s first-person account, she wrote that the incident occurred in December 2006, when she was a performer for the tour alongside Franken, then a well-known comedian. A Fox Sports Network correspondent and former model, Tweeden’s role was to introduce the entertainers, including musical acts and the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Franken, the headlining comedy act, pitched the idea of having her join him in acting out a humorous skit—one that included a kiss.

…Tweeden said that no one else witnessed the kiss, and she did not tell the tour’s organizers.

PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions

It would have seemed reasonable that, having felt assaulted by Franken, Tweeden might have wanted to warn other women on that USO tour about him.

But perhaps there was a good reason for her failure to do so. An investigation would give her the opportunity to provide that good reason, thus making the message she’s said she wants to send, more effective:

As for why she came forward now? She said she is hoping to inspire others to tell their stories.

Radio Host Accuses Sen. Al Franken Of Sexual Harassment, Says 'I Felt...

Tweeden deserves the chance to tell her story fully. A complete investigation is warranted.

It remains the case that Moore has several accusers who did speak or write about the alleged abuse when it happened, and Trump has several accusers who did speak or write about the alleged abuse when it happened. Franken has, at present, one accuser who did not speak or write about the alleged abuse when it happened.

Full investigations of all three are a reasonable and just response to the allegations made.

And anyone who is calling for Franken to resign, but not calling for Trump to resign or for Moore to withdraw his candidacy, is a partisan hypocrite.

[purplehearingaid]

@Sherrerd

Incorrect. By her own admission she told no one until weeks after the incident had taken place:

Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny About It – KABC-AM

She goes on to attempt to explain why she told no one else (and presumably why she waited several weeks to tell her husband):

[ibid]

Left unexplained is how Al Franken could have affected her career as a broadcaster.
The photo Franken thought was a good idea was a stupid, unfunny, sexist idea. He owes Tweeden an apology. He has given her an apology and she has accepted it.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/360709-woman-who-accused-franken-says-she-accepts-his-apology

If Franken, as Tweeden alleges, put his tongue in her mouth when all she’d agreed to was a stage kiss, then he should face some sort of greater penalty than merely having to apologize to Tweeden. So far, we have only Tweeden’s word on this.

A full investigation is called for. Franken showed poor judgment in posing for that photo. If some corroborative evidence is found in support of the tongue allegation, that is clearly a serious matter that will lead to negative consequences for Franken.

The investigation would certainly have been more conclusive had Tweeden told someone immediately about the kiss allegation. She didn’t know about the photo immediately and obviously couldn’t have told anyone about it. But her credibility is not helped by the delay in mentioning the kiss allegation, nor by her puzzling claim that Franken had power over her career path.

The person that took the photo also "showed poor judgment " and owns Tweeden an apology . There would be no photo if people had refused to take it .

[Sherrerd]

@purplehearingaid

The person that took the photo also "showed poor judgment " and owns Tweeden an apology . There would be no photo if people had refused to take it .

I agree.

I’m kind of surprised that we’re not hearing more about the other people on the tour (including the photo-taker). If Franken was being a dick to women in general you’d think maybe he’d have been doing same to some of those Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders.

The next few days may bring more news. There were a lot of people on that tour. Someone will be willing to talk.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Sherrerd

It remains the case that Moore has several accusers who did speak or write about the alleged abuse when it happened, and Trump has several accusers who did speak or write about the alleged abuse when it happened. Franken has, at present, one accuser who did not speak or write about the alleged abuse when it happened.

What’s your understanding of “when it happened” for Trump’s, Moore’s, and Franken’s accusers? Does that mean it has to be in the moment it happens? Same day? Same week?

You seem to be hanging your hat on a point that

1. most of your fellow travelers appear to reject, but, more importantly,
2. you haven’t substantiated and appear to be factually wrong about.

It sounds to me like Tweeden told her husband about it pretty much as soon as she found out about the photo, which because she was asleep at the time, was some time after the actual incident. Here is what WaPo reported about Corfman and Moore:

Two of Corfman’s childhood friends say she told them at the time that she was seeing an older man, and one says Corfman identified the man as Moore. Wells says her daughter told her about the encounter more than a decade later, as Moore was becoming more prominent as a local judge.

“more than a decade later” certainly doesn’t sound like “when it happened”, so which accusers are you referring to? You said “several”. Was Corfman not among them? Do you not find her story credible because she waited so long to tell anyone about the abuse?

[elucidator]

@Sherrerd

…Tweeden deserves the chance to tell her story fully. A complete investigation is warranted…

Your wording could imply a suspicion that she has been prevented from telling her story. Is that your intent? No snark intended, straight question.