Now, Al Franken

[Procrustus]

@What_Exit

If you’re disappointed by him, then you don’t know his origin. As a comedy writer and sometime performer from the beginning days of SNL, I am not the least bit surprised and would be shocked if he wasn’t doing plenty of coke in the 70s into the early 80s on top of it. I think the only surprise was the timing of this offense, not the offense itself. 1986 would have been no surprise, 1976 would have been, well of course. 2006 is surprising, especially on a USO tour.

What does coke have to do with anything?

[elucidator]

If boob jokes and bad puns are outlawed, it will have a devastating impact on Board membership. I will miss them.

[Starving_Artist]

@octopus

Especially the conservative ilk? :rolleyes:

Exactly! Hasn’t this predominantly liberal board had to enact rules outlawing sexist comments and jokes for the very reason so many of its female members were offended by them?

[HurricaneDitka]

@Sherrerd

…

That’s something quite different from what I’ve been discussing in my posts in this thread. I’ve been discussing talking to a friend or relative or pastor, or writing in a journal or diary, or otherwise doing something at the time (in days or weeks, usually) that creates a form of evidence. The evidence may or may not rise to the level of proof. But it creates support for any allegations that may later be made publicly.

In the case of Leeann Tweeden, I’ve been noting that she doesn’t seem to have mentioned or noted anything about the alleged misconduct by Franken during the kiss she’d agreed to. She may not have been able to tell her husband about the photo until weeks after it was taken (because, as I mentioned in my earlier post, she hadn’t known the photo existed). But that’s not true of the kiss “tongue” accusation. There was no delay in her finding out that this alleged abuse had occurred. She would have known instantly that it had occurred.

She could easily have said to one of more of the other women on that USO tour (Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders, etc.), ‘watch out for Franken, he’s a real creep’ or something similar. She could have spoken to her husband on the phone and said ‘I can’t wait for this to be over, one of the men here has been a real jerk’ or such. She could have mentioned the incident in a letter or journal.

Apparently that didn’t happen. It doesn’t mean that she’s making up the tongue accusation (or even exaggerating it)–it may have happened exactly the way she said. But there’s no doubt that the absence of contemporary corroboration of some kind doesn’t help her credibility.

…

You didn’t answer my question. Let me try asking again: you made a specific claim:

@Sherrerd

… It remains the case that Moore has several accusers who did speak or write about the alleged abuse when it happened …

What is your cite for that claim?

ETA: To be clear, I haven’t done a good job of keeping track of Moore’s accusers, but my understanding was that the ones who were alleging non-consensual sexual abuse of one form or another also did not speak or write about it when it happened. You said several of them did, and I’d like to know the details, because we apparently have different information.

[elucidator]

If you need to take a break in order to become better informed, I’m sure no one here will think the less of you for it.

[DSeid]

@elucidator

If you need to take a break in order to become better informed, I’m sure no one here will think the less of you for it.

Not agreeing with much of HD’s positions but it is generally the job of someone who has made a claim to support it if requested.

[DSeid]

FWIW I think that having individuals who can state that they were told of the alleged event at the time, or soon after the time, it was alleged to occur, increases an allegation’s credibility, and a consistent pattern of allegations from multiple sources also does, as well as increasing concern about the person’s basic character.

I can easily believe that a comic era Franken dealing with a co-worker who was, in his mind, being silly and difficult by not wanting to do an on-stage kiss scene, might have decided to be obnoxious and give her sloppy one, something a Senator Franken would never do and would regret that he had done in the past. Something wrong to do. Not excusing it. We have no reason to think that Ms. Tweeden is not being completely truthful. The question is if this one event establishes Franken as someone who as a comic behaved badly or if it establishes him as a sexual predator and abuser of power. I would only conclude the latter if it turns out that there was a pattern of such behaviors rather than a pattern of failed and infantile attempts at humor (which would be expected of a comic who takes many swings at bat).

[VinylTurnip]

@Starving_Artist

Exactly! Hasn’t this predominantly liberal board had to enact rules outlawing sexist comments and jokes for the very reason so many of its female members were offended by them?

You got us there. To see women treated right, you have to seek out a conservative forum— Fox News comments, Breitbart, or r/The_Donald— the last remaining oases of old-world gentility, courtly manners, and mutual respect. They’re like little time capsules of the lost age of decorum and rectitude that historians like Starving Artist assure us once existed, before talkies and color film stock, when burly men with crew cuts venerated all women, provided they shaved their legs and kept their yaps shut.

Sorry, I— no, just got a little something in my eye, is all.

[HurricaneDitka]

@elucidator

If you need to take a break in order to become better informed, I’m sure no one here will think the less of you for it.

I already share the information I had:

@HurricaneDitka

… Here is what WaPo reported about Corfman and Moore:

Two of Corfman’s childhood friends say she told them at the time that she was seeing an older man, and one says Corfman identified the man as Moore. Wells says her daughter told her about the encounter more than a decade later, as Moore was becoming more prominent as a local judge.

“more than a decade later” certainly doesn’t sound like “when it happened”, so which accusers are you referring to? You said “several”. Was Corfman not among them? Do you not find her story credible because she waited so long to tell anyone about the abuse?

The other two that claim some unwanted sexual abuse seem to be Beverly Young Nelson and Tina Johnson.

They both appear to have waited significant amounts of time before writing / telling about their abuse at Moore’s hands:

Although Nelson had bruises from the encounter, she used makeup to cover them up. She quit her job and remained silent until two years after the incident, at which point she told her sister.

[“He didn’t pinch it; he grabbed it,” said Johnson. **She was so surprised she didn’t say anything. She didn’t tell her mother.

She said she told her sister years later** how Moore had made her feel uncomfortable during that meeting.](New Roy Moore accuser: 'He didn't pinch it; he grabbed it' - al.com)

Are there others I’m unaware of? Sherrerd said:

@Sherrerd

… It remains the case that Moore has several accusers who did speak or write about the alleged abuse when it happened …

Who are the “several”? Who did they tell about the abuse “when it happened”? I’d genuinely like to know.

[Starving_Artist]

@VinylTurnip

You got us there. To see women treated right, you have to seek out a conservative forum— Fox News comments, Breitbart, or r/The_Donald— the last remaining oases of old-world gentility, courtly manners, and mutual respect. They’re like little time capsules of the lost age of decorum and rectitude that historians like Starving Artist assure us once existed, before talkies and color film stock, when burly men with crew cuts venerated all women, provided they shaved their legs and kept their yaps shut.

Sorry, I— no, just got a little something in my eye, is all.

So “Yeah, we may be crass, vulgar, sexist pigs who also make crude jokes and objectify women but we’re not as bad as the other guys” is your defense?

And oh, yeah, since you’re so fond of pointing to politicians as examples of their base: Ohio Supreme Court Judge Bill O'Neill brags of sex conquests

[Measure_for_Measure]

@VinylTurnip

You got us there. To see women treated right, you have to seek out a conservative forum— Fox News comments, Breitbart, or r/The_Donald— the last remaining oases of old-world gentility, courtly manners, and mutual respect. They’re like little time capsules of the lost age of decorum and rectitude that historians like Starving Artist assure us once existed, before talkies and color film stock, when burly men with crew cuts venerated all women, provided they shaved their legs and kept their yaps shut.

Sorry, I— no, just got a little something in my eye, is all.

Starving Artist remains oblivious to the fact that the politeness intensifiers have all come from the left for the past 30 years, while only coarseness or at best enabling has emanated from movement conservatives. It’s one thing to miss Gingrich’s and the NY Post’s influence, it’s another to not notice the 4chan alt-right.

40 or 50 years ago, the roles were reversed.

[Starving_Artist]

@Measure for Measure

Starving Artist remains oblivious to the fact that the politeness intensifiers have all come from the left for the past 30 years

Yes, you guys put on a good show of being ‘enlightened’ and non-sexist. The reality doesn’t match.

And once again, if we’re going to point to public figures as examples of their base, I’ll point in return to the fact that nearly all of the abusers being outed these days are Democrats.

[QuickSilver]

@Starving_Artist

Yes, you guys put on a good show of being ‘enlightened’ and non-sexist. The reality doesn’t match.

And once again, if we’re going to point to public figures as examples of their base, I’ll point in return to the fact that nearly all of the abusers being outed these days are Democrats.

Not surprisingly, most of the apologists for the abusers being outed these days are Republicans.

[Starving_Artist]

You might want to rethink the significance of that comment.

[QuickSilver]

@Starving_Artist

You might want to rethink the significance of that comment.

No, what are YOU talking about?

[Measure_for_Measure]

@QuickSilver

Not surprisingly, most of the apologists for the abusers being outed these days are Republicans.

Yes. The pressure for greater civility comes from the left. The resistance to greater civility comes from the right.

I’m not even claiming here that this is a good thing (though I believe it is). I’m just saying it is factual.

It wouldn’t have to be this way. There could be a conservative movement pushing dress codes and curbing vulgar speech. I’m just saying that objectively there really isn’t. But there was during the 1970s. Libertarianism blunted that on the right, while hippie values steamrolled it from the left.

Meanwhile the NY Post pushed all manner of loud and crude conduct, though they certainly were hilarious at times.
ETA: Outed abusers: Trump, Moore, Weinstein, (Franken), various Hollywood types. John Tower (R) in Washington.

[Starving_Artist]

@QuickSilver

No, what are YOU talking about?

Your apparent acknowledgement that abuse is worse on the left, and that right-wing ‘apologism’ [to the degree it exists in the first place; why would conservatives be making excuses for left-wing miscreancy] is equal to the abuse Democrats have been perpetrating on their victims.

[BlankSlate]

@Starving_Artist

Yes, you guys put on a good show of being ‘enlightened’ and non-sexist. The reality doesn’t match.

And once again, if we’re going to point to public figures as examples of their base, I’ll point in return to the fact that nearly all of the abusers being outed these days are Democrats.

You mean democrats like Trump, Moore, Ailes and O’Reilly?

[QuickSilver]

@Starving_Artist

Your apparent acknowledgement that abuse is worse on the left, and that right-wing ‘apologism’ [to the degree it exists in the first place; why would conservatives be making excuses for left-wing miscreancy] is equal to the abuse Democrats have been perpetrating on their victims.

No, serious… WTF are you talking about?

[elucidator]

Your “apparent acknowledgement” is totally from Gotcha City! You confessed, its like Perry Mason, you’re on the witness stand and just volunteered that, yes, you were in the library with the candlestick and a gom jabbar…