Now, Al Franken

As to where the culture actually is. Data always good and Morning Consult reliable. Culture cares about #metoo, recognizes it as a problem, huge majorities, and also cares about both false accusations and men being denied due process when accusation are made. See pages 60 and following.

Of all adults 54% are very concerned and 78% at least somewhat concerned about false accusations, including 73% of all under 38 years of age.

Similarly 45% and 74% very or at least somewhat about due process.

69% of all adults at least somewhat concerned about men’s careers being ruined by an accusation.

71% that “the punishment for less-serious forms of sexual assault or harassment being the same as the punishment for more-serious forms of sexual assault or harassment.”

Detailed breakdowns there.

So I think your guidance about where culture is taken for what it is worth.

Franken is the past, we don’t need him. What is the value of revising his wobbly political career? We have real issues to address and finding employment for a creepy television writer is pretty far down the list. Someone should have told Franken that being a senator is difficult and that we expect higher standards from a senator than we did from a performer on fifty year old TV show.

That is a lot of excuses for sexual assault. Sure you want to go down that path?

Well, duh. Of course it’s an asshole thing to do. That’s part of the joke. She wasn’t in on the joke in that particular picture, but reportedly they did jokes onstage involving Franken (or, more properly, Franken’s comic persona) sexually objectifying her, repeatedly, and she fully cooperated with those jokes.

See, that’s the thing: it looks like maybe they did have something like this kind of relationship, or he reasonably thought they did. That she actually was okay with it at the time, but only later retroactively became offended as a way of taking him down politically and/or punishing him for his mockery of Sean Hannity and Fox News.

I don’t know if that’s true, but it looks like it’s a possibility; and it’s the theory that the New Yorker article seems to be presenting, with some justification.

After a few cold ‘skis and a round or two of Devil’s Triange, Timmy & Squee said that good ol’ Judge Kav liked to play an asshole too.

All in good fun, right?

Now, when is the next reunion of the Renate Alumni?

(If you’ll pardon me, I’ve gotta boof, all this talk of poor Senator Franken has that effect on me)

Yeah, the picture in isolation is not much. It’s in keeping with the whole USO shtick they’d been doing.

The problem is all the other reports it brought out. Biden spent 40 years being the quintessential overly touchy politician and yet when #metoo turned to him, nobody talked about an ass grab.

Completely agree. But if he decides to run for some office again it will be up for the voters in his state or district to decide about, yah?

What the Morning Consult data informs about though is that across the board, especially among Ds, there is huge agreement on need for concern regarding “sexual harassment and assault young women could face throughout their life” … AND that there is also huge concern with agreement across the board regarding that there is need for concern about false accusations, about having due process, about careers being ruined, and about less serious offenses being lumped with same degree of punishment as the more serious.

There is also a sizable minority (22% of Ds) that isn’t too concerned about the less serious being punished the same degree as the more serious, some (6%) not at all concerned. Some of them are very active in social media. They are the minority but the subject is still very divisive because they are the very active.

And we really can’t afford too many fracture lines this time. So really Franken should at least lay low until after 2020 if he wants his state’s voters to decide if he is worth another chance. IMHO.

When it just affects a couple of people, then it’s up to them to decide how to handle it. But when Franken is representing other people, those people will hold him to their own standard. I’m 100% sure he was joking around, but he was joking around about sexual objectification. I think it’s reasonable for his constituents to be offended by that. They want to be represented by someone who doesn’t engage in that even if he’s just joking around. A similar argument could be made if he was joking around about racism, pedophilia, homosexuality, bullying, or some other controversial topic. For someone who feels like they are a victim of sexual objectification, they want it to be treated as a serious matter. Joking about it just helps perpetuate that it’s okay.

I get the impression that those USO shows (not just the ones involving Franken) involved quite a bit of that—the subset of bawdy humor that involves joking around about sexual objectification.

Is it time to consider those sorts of jokes off-limits, or Not Funny Anymore? Maybe. That’s not the conversation we’ve been having here, but maybe it’s a conversation we should be having.

Maybe they should drop having Hooters/lingerie models from being part of the act too. Tweeden’s only real claim to fame at that point was her own sexual objectification.

I can’t believe what I’m reading in this thread.

Look, there are jokes, and there are jokes. We didn’t need the “me, too” movement to know that Franken’s picture is degrading and that it’s not unreasonable for a woman to feel a sense of humiliation at being the butt of that kind of ‘joke’.

Yes, I get that it was a mistake. He shouldn’t be imprisoned over it. He probably could have survived it politically were it not for the fact that…it’s a pattern of questionable behavior. And who seriously gives a fuck if he’s a comedian? Comedians can’t get away with being racist, homophobic, or misogynistic.

If he wants to run again, he can be my guest, but I’ll certainly think a lot less of him if he proves to be that level of vain. I get the feeling that the reason Franken’s expressing regret isn’t because he’s truly sorry for making women uncomfortable, but he looks at himself as a victim, having given up a Senate seat over past behavior while someone like Trump gets away with lewd behavior all the time. He wishes he had fought back like Trump, like Ralph Northam, and like Justin Fairfax.

He should start his own hashtag movement: #notsorrybitches

Why don’t you think that the fact they had done the very same gag in the skits they performed as a mitigating factor? No, he shouldn’t have done it while she was asleep but it’s not like Franken made some “gonna grab your boobs” joke out of the blue. They had done the gag together several times.

I can understand that you think it’s still not right but “I can’t believe what I’m reading”?

When it’s part of the act, it’s consensual. Presumably, she’s aware of what is going on in the act and has agreed to it. She has some control in how it’s being portrayed and for what purpose it will be used for. But when she’s sleeping, she can’t consent and doesn’t have any control over it. It also seems more demeaning to me what he did. It’s not a sign of respect. He used her for a joke without her knowledge. An actor may portray any manner of sexual deviant behaviors, but that doesn’t mean that they are okay with any of that off-screen.

I suppose a reverse scenario would be if she went up to him when he was sleeping and did something to sexually objectify him. For example, what if she indicated he had a small penis. I can imagine a picture where she is smirking with one hand over her mouth and the other near his crotch making a hand gesture for a tiny penis. Even if there were some jokes in the act where she may have implied “he wouldn’t measure up to be with her”, I don’t imagine that Franklin would be okay with such a picture being taken.

I agree 100% with the first paragraph but I honestly believe he’d be ok with the scenario in the second. Of course, his actual response is unknowable.

I said mitigating not exonerating.

This is the lack of nuance that worries people. Yeah, we all know this isn’t “grb em by the pussy” stuff but you don’t act like you know that. For example, in this very thread Sunny Daze says she doesn’t think it matters if he actually grabbed her breasts or not.

I agree with you that he might be okay with her making fun of his penis. Men are generally receptive to interactions with attractive women and give them a lot of leeway for behavior. But what if it wasn’t an attractive woman? What if it was one of the men who was doing something like pretending to kiss him or fondle his penis while he slept? I’m not so sure Franken would be okay with that.

…but she was asleep in the photo. She didn’t fully cooperate in that photo. She didn’t consent to that photo. What she did do when she was awake is completely irrelevant.

See, here’s the thing: there is no material difference between adopting the “persona of a douche bag” and actually having the “persona of a douche bag.” If you act like a “douche bag” you are being a “douche bag”, even if you are only pretending to be a “douche bag.”

The New Yorker article was atrocious journalism of the worst sort. We can completely eliminate Tweeden’s story and we still have seven other allegations.

Franken was tasked with writing the USO skit, which could have literally been about anything in the world, which the woman agreed to be in. Franken the perv then writes, natch, a skit that requires them to kiss, and also insists on practicing the skit, including actual kiss, multiple times, under the guise of needing to get the skit down pat perfect, because you know, USO bits need to be 100% mistake free! USO audiences and their damned insistence on performance realism is to blame, not Weird Al!

…well it doesn’t. The Franken photo is a Rorschach test. Schrödinger’s cat. I think he is touching her. Many others think differently. I accept that I can’t know for certain. But what material difference does my opinion make? What does it change? Tweeden thought he was touching her. Franken states he was not. Does that make any difference to how Tweeden feels? We aren’t talking about “the legal” distinction. From the victims point of view its a violation either way.

Like I said, lack of nuance.