# Now also available in Honky White **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 13, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990 "2007-04-13T17:45:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/41 "2007-04-20T07:02:52Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] 'Cause we use [Darkie brand toothpaste](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlie) whenever we’re in Hong Kong. I’m actually smiling that a black kid can be seven already without ever having come across the N-word. Even if it’s Canada. [/QUOTE] Elvis - now let’s be nice and explain that while there was a brand called Darkie previously widely available in Hong Kong and Taiwan, it’s been off the market for more than a decade. It was replaced with Darlie brand and the picture changed to the one in the linked Wikipedia entry. In Chinese, it remains heirenyagao or literally black person’s toothpaste. Second, don’t know about the rest of you but my bullshit meters is pinging off the scale. This is the first time I’ve ever heard the phrase “nigger black” as a color in China (heiren de hei 黑人的黑). This is not a phrase used in Chinese. Why it would be in a translation software program developed in China is beyond me. Looking at some standard Chinese dictionairies, there are no entries for “nigger” in either english to chinese or chinese to english. So, I’m looking at the photo. It \*could \* be legit but I’d like to see it affixed to the actual furniture. Again, it’s possible this is legit but it sure doesn’t pass my common sense test. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/42 "2007-04-20T07:32:52Z")
[QUOTE=China Guy] Second, don’t know about the rest of you but my bullshit meters is pinging off the scale. This is the first time I’ve ever heard the phrase “nigger black” as a color in China (heiren de hei ???). This is not a phrase used in Chinese. Why it would be in a translation software program developed in China is beyond me. Looking at some standard Chinese dictionairies, there are no entries for “nigger” in either english to chinese or chinese to english. So, I’m looking at the photo. It \*could \* be legit but I’d like to see it affixed to the actual furniture. Again, it’s possible this is legit but it sure doesn’t pass my common sense test. [/QUOTE] “Nigger brown” may not be a common phrase in Chinese, but it was once (pre-1950ish) common as a colour descriptor in British English, particularly for fabrics. I’ve read that until comparatively recently, the English taught in China was British English, and that some of the dictionaries in use hadn’t been updated since WWII. It’s entirely plausible to me that a list of synonyms for “dark brown” – especially if made by someone not entirely fluent and up-to-date with modern English usage – might include that expression. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/43 "2007-04-20T07:57:58Z")
Reminds me of the Nintendo DS available in “Crystal Cocaine White.” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/44 "2007-04-20T08:02:29Z")
I suspect it was meant to say _Niger_ brown - which is an established (although little used) descriptive name for a dark chocolate brown. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/45 "2007-04-20T09:34:13Z")
OK, typo, “nigger brown.” I understand that may have been a color in the UK and US in the past. However, I’ve never heard this expression in Chinese. It’s not in a couple different dictionaries from different decades that I just looked through. The story is “plausible” but doesn’t pass my 20 years in China BS test. Just my 2 cents. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/46 "2007-04-20T09:39:48Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I suspect it was meant to say _Niger_ brown - which is an established (although little used) descriptive name for a dark chocolate brown. [/QUOTE] That’s plausible, but nigger brown was an established phrase within living memory, and still seems to be alive and well in some chinese-english dictionaries. For anyone still puzzled or sceptical, I can recommend [this post from Language Log,](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004398.html#more) which includes quotes from the OED and links to an on-line chinese-english dictionary, as well as some social history of the phrase. Edit to add: **China Guy,** the point is not that it’s a direct translation from the Chinese, but that it’s an out-dated English phrase, given by some dictionaries as a translation of the Chinese for “dark brown”. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/47 "2007-04-20T09:47:07Z")
The Chinese manager’s explanation sounds perfectly plausible to me. I mean, really, haven’t you guys ever gone Babelfishing? The first word (sometimes the only word) given is wrong 99% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/48 "2007-04-20T10:46:37Z")
[QUOTE=WotNot] Edit to add: **China Guy,** the point is not that it’s a direct translation from the Chinese, but that it’s an out-dated English phrase, given by some dictionaries as a translation of the Chinese for “dark brown”. [/QUOTE] Again, my looking through a handful of chinese dictionaries, some 2+ decades old, don’t turn up the n word. I can’t say 100% that some obscure chinese to english dictionary used by an obscure translation software doesn’t contain the n word, but IMHO is highly unlikely. the a photo in the article is not attached. again maybe they took off all the tags before noticing. and maybe t e little girl really didn’t know what the n word means - and that would be a nice turn in this world. on the other hand, this could plausibly be a spoof. i’m not convinced but would bet on the spoof. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/49 "2007-04-20T10:55:03Z")
It strikes me that Doris Moore is something of a performance artiste. Although it is good publicity for **Vanaik Furniture and Mattress store on Dundas St. E.** As for the Chinese translation software, no Chinese manufacturer is going to admit to not being high tech and resorting to using a human translator who has some 1950s catalogues. I would put this down to a manual (human) translation error, but one that has been brilliantly exploited by **Vanaik Furniture and Mattress store on Dundas St. E.** Also I’ll bet that **Vanaik Furniture and Mattress store on Dundas St. E.** is a regular advertizer in the Toronto Star - it looks like rather well done ‘puff’ to me. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/50 "2007-04-20T12:20:57Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] It strikes me that Doris Moore is something of a performance artiste. Although it is good publicity for **Vanaik Furniture and Mattress store on Dundas St. E.** [/QUOTE] You think so? Even when it says things like “When interviewed yesterday by the Star, Romesh Kumar, Vanaik’s assistant manager, passed the buck to his supplier, Cosmos Furniture in Scarborough.” and “Moore said she called the furniture store the following day and three other times since, and feels discouraged that no one has returned her calls.” I know all publicity is good publicity - but I would think twice about frequenting a store that seemed to exhibit no customer service skills at all… ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/51 "2007-04-20T12:30:52Z")
[QUOTE=Martiju] You think so? Even when it says things like “When interviewed yesterday by the Star, Romesh Kumar, Vanaik’s assistant manager, passed the buck to his supplier, Cosmos Furniture in Scarborough.” and “Moore said she called the furniture store the following day and three other times since, and feels discouraged that no one has returned her calls.” I know all publicity is good publicity - but I would think twice about frequenting a store that seemed to exhibit no customer service skills at all… [/QUOTE] Well you and I don’t share the same outlook - you would kill the story - I would keep it running - preferably into a second series Funny how her calls landed up blaming software in the PRC ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/52 "2007-04-20T12:49:48Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Well you and I don’t share the same outlook - you would kill the story - I would keep it running - preferably into a second series Funny how her calls landed up blaming software in the PRC [/QUOTE] Heh - sorry! ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/53 "2007-04-20T13:05:44Z")
It’s entirely plausible that a translation made by way of a dictionary of British origin (ultimately) could screw up in this way. I’m amazed at how easily the word “nigger” was bandied about in British use even into the 1940s in a way that it wasn’t in the US. The name of the squadron’s black labrador in the real-life “Dambuster” squadron was “Nigger”, and they used that name in the early 1950s movie of the incident. Whenm they run that film on American TV they cut those scenes and lines (which is pretty awkward, because the dog’s name was also used as a codeword during the attack). Similarly, Agatha Christie’s mystery novel (and play!) were entitled **Ten Little Nigger Boys** originally. The title was changed to Ten Little Indians (itself now politically incorrect) in the States (I don’t know if the “Ten Little Nigger Boys” title was ever used in the US. I haven’t seen it, but I’m not so familiar with older mysteries, either hardbound or paperback), and finally to “And Then There Were None”. Even with its history of the use of “nigger” as a common spoken racial term in the US, I can’t recall seeing it in a title, or in pulp fiction in the 20th century, or in movies. What’s that, you say? Joseph Conrad’s “Nigger of the Narcissus”? First published in Britain. And look at this gem: > [@](#): > > In the United States, the novel was first published with the title The Children of the Sea: A Tale of the Forecastle, at the publisher, Codd, Meade and Company’s insistence that no one would buy or read a book with the word nigger in its title From Wikipedia: > **[The Nigger of the "Narcissus"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nigger_of_the_'Narcissus')** > > The Nigger of the "Narcissus": A Tale of the Forecastle\[a\] (sometimes subtitled A Tale of the Sea) is an 1897 novella by Polish-British novelist Joseph Conrad. The central character is an Afro-Caribbean man who is ill at sea while aboard the trading ship Narcissus heading towards London. Due to the offensiveness of the word nigger in the title, it was renamed The Children of the Sea: A Tale of the Forecastle for the 1897 US edition. The novella dignifies the men in the forecastle and "explo Som... ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/54 "2007-04-20T13:57:04Z")
[QUOTE=China Guy] Again, my looking through a handful of chinese dictionaries, some 2+ decades old, don’t turn up the n word. I can’t say 100% that some obscure chinese to english dictionary used by an obscure translation software doesn’t contain the n word, but IMHO is highly unlikely. [/QUOTE] **China Guy** , I have an English-Chinese dictionary that contains the word. I’m getting ready for work, but when I get back I’ll dig it up and scan it in if you like. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/55 "2007-04-20T15:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] It’s entirely plausible that a translation made by way of a dictionary of British origin (ultimately) could screw up in this way. I’m amazed at how easily the word “nigger” was bandied about in British use even into the 1940s in a way that it wasn’t in the US. The name of the squadron’s black labrador in the real-life “Dambuster” squadron was “Nigger”, and they used that name in the early 1950s movie of the incident. Whenm they run that film on American TV they cut those scenes and lines (which is pretty awkward, because the dog’s name was also used as a codeword during the attack). Similarly, Agatha Christie’s mystery novel (and play!) were entitled **Ten Little Nigger Boys** originally. The title was changed to Ten Little Indians (itself now politically incorrect) in the States (I don’t know if the “Ten Little Nigger Boys” title was ever used in the US. I haven’t seen it, but I’m not so familiar with older mysteries, either hardbound or paperback), and finally to “And Then There Were None”. Even with its history of the use of “nigger” as a common spoken racial term in the US, I can’t recall seeing it in a title, or in pulp fiction in the 20th century, or in movies. What’s that, you say? Joseph Conrad’s “Nigger of the Narcissus”? First published in Britain. And look at this gem: From Wikipedia: > **[The Nigger of the "Narcissus"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nigger_of_the_'Narcissus')** > > The Nigger of the "Narcissus": A Tale of the Forecastle\[a\] (sometimes subtitled A Tale of the Sea) is an 1897 novella by Polish-British novelist Joseph Conrad. The central character is an Afro-Caribbean man who is ill at sea while aboard the trading ship Narcissus heading towards London. Due to the offensiveness of the word nigger in the title, it was renamed The Children of the Sea: A Tale of the Forecastle for the 1897 US edition. The novella dignifies the men in the forecastle and "explo Som... [/QUOTE] Pulp western author J T Edson (he’s on Wikipedia too) had a recurrent character with a horse called “Nigger”. This was typical cowhand humour (or as literary types would say, a _lucus a non lucendo_) since the horse was as white as could be. It was also as evil-tempered as Satan’s big ugly brother, but that had nothing to do with the name. I came across an omnibus edition one time where the story “Trigger Fast” had evidently been sanitised, perhaps for the US market… the horse was called “Blackie” throughout. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2007, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/56 "2007-04-21T09:01:20Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Mudd] **China Guy** , I have an English-Chinese dictionary that contains the word. I’m getting ready for work, but when I get back I’ll dig it up and scan it in if you like. [/QUOTE] If you have the name of the dictionary, that would be cool. I’m just curious. It’s not in the Oxford Concise, the Taiwanese New Practical, ABC, etc, which are the standard dictionaries that I use. always looking for a better dictionary though 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2007, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/57 "2007-04-21T09:27:47Z")
I think the manufacturers have been hanging out in Beijing’s [Racist Park](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6052800.stm) too long. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2007, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/58 "2007-04-21T09:47:03Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] I think the manufacturers have been hanging out in Beijing’s [Racist Park](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6052800.stm) too long. [/QUOTE] Hmmm. Racist Park. You’d think he would be Korean. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2007, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990/59 "2007-04-21T09:57:05Z")
The thing is that until comparatively recently ‘Nigger’ was not considered offensive in Britain, golliwogs were common (I think I had one) they were the logo of Robertson’s jams, you saved up tokens and got one of hundreds of badges - I had plenty of those. Now of course, it is considered highly offensive, but to judge people in the past by today’s standards is a bit like re-writing history. Now I would love to see labels saying: ‘Made For Devils only’ meaning ‘Made For Export (to the West)’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-also-available-in-honky-white/399990.md?page=2)