# Now Arizona proposes letting states decide Presidential candidate eligibility **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063 "2010-04-23T01:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jonesj2205](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jonesj2205](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonesj2205)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/21 "2010-04-23T12:58:01Z")
I’m not sure I understand why you think this is different from the other rules states use to decide which candidates appear on the ballot. Here in NY for instance it’s very difficult for third-party lines to maintain third party lines. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/22 "2010-04-23T12:59:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Heck, I’m as cute as a panda on a tricycle. But I assume you guys are offering condenscension in lieu of the rebuttal you are unable to produce. They have to prove that the Birthers are idiots? Really? Dude, they are so far divorced from reality that, frankly, the lizard-men aren’t that much weirder an idea. The birth certificate was shown, verified, and yet they still deny it. Furthermore, they dismiss the fact that, even if he WERE born in Kenya, he’s STILL an American by virtue of his American mother. The same technicality made McCain eligible for the presidency, and no one’s screaming that he’s not an American. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/23 "2010-04-23T13:00:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I disagree. If Obama had a chance to face the accusation squarely in court he would win. If fifty different secretaries of state, Democrats and Republican, all stated that Barack Hussein Obama has produced valid evidence that he is a natural-born American citizen, then it would have demolished the birther movement. Ah, but you’re assuming that those DAs would be moral, ethical, apolitical professionals. Wisconsin has a DA that wants to sue to stop Healthcare Reform, would probably jump at the chance to run for governor on a Tea Party ticket, and would love to get some free publicity by denying Obama’s citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/24 "2010-04-23T13:00:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Heck, I’m as cute as a panda on a tricycle. But I assume you guys are offering condenscension in lieu of the rebuttal you are unable to produce. > [@Lok](#): > > Except he has shown valid evidence that he was born in the USA. You can still see pictures of it online. It has been looked at by news organizations, certified by the Republican governor and the Secretary of State of Hawaii, and was good enough for the Federal government for Obama to get a passport. And none of that is good enough. And there is no way it can be. The majority of birthers are either already out there with the lizard believers or are just racist, looking for any reason they can to declare him illegitimate. There you go. ---
**Author:** ![howye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9adbd/32.png) [@howye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/howye)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/25 "2010-04-23T13:03:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Heck, I’m as cute as a panda on a tricycle. But I assume you guys are offering condenscension in lieu of the rebuttal you are unable to produce. There is no possible rebuttal. I would cite Taitz, Orly. These people are nuttier than a squirrel’s cheeks in November. A picture of Obama’s mother in front of the state capital building in Hawaii, legs spread and actually pushing little Barack out of her vagina would not satisfy these people. There is a complete disconnect from reality, a refusal to accept anything. They cannot be convinced because they are not actually looking to be convinced, they want to believe their imaginations because the reality of a black man being president is too much for them to handle. As to the Arizona thing, its stupid and if passed will put the Arizona Secretary of State in an uncomfortable position when he or she accepts Obama’s credentials for the 2012 ballot. Which by the way, will not convince one birther of anything other than the lack of purity on the Secretary’s part. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/26 "2010-04-23T13:06:27Z")
Generally, I think that it’s a good thing to decide whether candidates are eligible for election before they go on the ballot. I was once elected to a position at a university in Australia – except that after the ballot, the person running the election realised that I wasn’t eligible. It meant that the ballot was wasted, and the position I ran for was unfilled for some months, However, I think it should be done at the federal level rather than at the state level, for election to a federal office, so that your hypothetical presidential candidate Barry G., born in Arizona before it became a state, doesn’t get thrown off the ballot in some states, but allowed on the ballot in other states, on the basis of different secretaries of state making different decisions about whether he was a natural-born citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/27 "2010-04-23T13:17:47Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Good point. It probably doesn’t, at least textually. > > In the event that this bill proceeds successfully through the AZ senate, and is signed into law by the governor, do you anticipate it being successfully challenged? Not successfully. The Constitution clearly gives state legislatures the power to choose electors; it’s very difficult to imagine a successful challenge to a regulation that is on its face merely applying the constitutional standard for presidential qualifications. > [@](#): > > Do you, personally, feel that this is a wise action for the Arizona legislature to take? Were you an Arizona state legislator, would you support this bill? I’d have to know more about existing law… I’d be surprised to learn that Arizona doesn’t already have a law requiring candidiates for election to demonstrate that they are qualified before being placed on the ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/28 "2010-04-23T13:23:02Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Generally, I think that it’s a good thing to decide whether candidates are eligible for election before they go on the ballot. I was once elected to a position at a university in Australia – except that after the ballot, the person running the election realised that I wasn’t eligible. It meant that the ballot was wasted, and the position I ran for was unfilled for some months, > > However, I think it should be done at the federal level rather than at the state level, for election to a federal office, so that your hypothetical presidential candidate Barry G., born in Arizona before it became a state, doesn’t get thrown off the ballot in some states, but allowed on the ballot in other states, on the basis of different secretaries of state making different decisions about whether he was a natural-born citizen. You do understand that in this country, we vote in each state for a slate of electors, who in turn are pledged to vote for the Presidential candidiate of your choice… right? And that the constitution places the power to choose those electors squarely in the hands of each state legislature? And you realize that third party candidates frequently face the problem you mention: being on the ballot in some states but not in others. ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/29 "2010-04-23T13:29:31Z")
Or we can just get rid of the natural born citizen requirement to avoid this issue entirely. If people don’t want to vote for a candidate because they suspect he or she is foreign born, they would be free to do so. But if the American people wanted Arnold Schwarzenegger as President of the USA, it should be their right to elect him. Hell, if they wanted [Knut](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knut_%28polar_bear%29) the polar bear or [King of Bhutan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigme_Khesar_Namgyal_Wangchuck), they should be able to have that choice. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/30 "2010-04-23T13:48:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You do understand that in this country, we vote in each state for a slate of electors, who in turn are pledged to vote for the Presidential candidiate of your choice… right? And that the constitution places the power to choose those electors squarely in the hands of each state legislature? > > And you realize that third party candidates frequently face the problem you mention: being on the ballot in some states but not in others. Yes, I’m aware of the formal process. However, I don’t think it was ever really a purely state level process: voters in 1789 knew they were voting for General Washington, and not for some eminent citizens of their state who would be members of the Electoral College. I think it’s problematic even if a minority party that is likely to get less that 1% of the vote is not on the ballot in every state. However, if in a hypothetical case where people were raising doubts about whether a major party candidate was eligible, different secretaries of state made different decisions about eligibility, there would be a major problem. Of course, what would happen would be that the case would be taken to the state’s supreme court, and then (if necessary) to the Supreme Court of the United States – which would have jurisdiction, as we found in [Bush v. Gore](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore). If you need a body to make the decision, then it’s probably best to give the role to the SCOTUS, acting as a court of first instance. ---
**Author:** ![gang\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f07891/32.png) [@gang\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gang_green)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/31 "2010-04-23T13:53:08Z")
Anderson Cooper [interviewed](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/4/22/859596/-The-Surprising-Relevance-of-Facts-aka-Anderson-Cooper-showed-up-for-work)one of Arizona’s legislators about this. It’s an interesting piece. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/32 "2010-04-23T14:02:41Z")
> [@gang\_green](#): > > Anderson Cooper [interviewed](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/4/22/859596/-The-Surprising-Relevance-of-Facts-aka-Anderson-Cooper-showed-up-for-work)one of Arizona’s legislators about this. It’s an interesting piece. From the interview: > [@](#): > > COOPER: So, where was George Bush born? > > ASH: I have no idea where George Bush was born. > > COOPER: But you – that wasn’t a concern for you when he was in office? > > ASH: The issue never came up. > > COOPER: What about Bill Clinton? Where was he born? > > ASH: I have no idea. I think Anderson Cooper should also have asked where Senator McCain was born… ---
**Author:** ![jonesj2205](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jonesj2205](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonesj2205)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/33 "2010-04-23T14:15:01Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Yes, I’m aware of the formal process. However, I don’t think it was ever really a purely state level process: voters in 1789 knew they were voting for General Washington, and not for some eminent citizens of their state who would be members of the Electoral College. In a number of states voters didn’t vote at all. The state legislatures appointed the Electoral College members. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/34 "2010-04-23T14:18:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I think Anderson Cooper should also have asked where Senator McCain was born… Well, the answer would presumably remain the same. I honestly don’t think the bill is that big a deal, although the motivation for it is pretty obviously _not_ ensuring that a noncitizen gets on the Arizona ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/35 "2010-04-23T14:53:10Z")
My point is that Orly Taitz and the Tea Baggers are free to throw out any wild accusation they want - they’re only answerable to their audience and Fox News. They’re like the people who claim there was some conspiracy to kill JFK or that Bush blew up the World Trade Center - all they have to do is spread rumors and not produce any evidence. But legal systems don’t work like that. The Arizona legislature would establish a procedure on determining a person’s birthplace. Despite some paranoid suspicions, this procedure is not going to be _“the candidate must be white”_ or even _“the candidate must be a Republican”_. No, it will be something like _“The candidate must produce a notarized copy of the document recording his birth that was in use in the state of his birth at the time it occurred. This document must be submitted to the office of the Secretary of State no later than six months prior to the election. The Secretary of State will review said document and issue a statement affirming or denying its validity within thirty days of receipt of said document.”_ Etc etc etc. It will have to be an actual specifically outlined process - something that every candidate’s staff can read and comply with. Because keep in mind that the same law is also going to be applied to McCain or Romney or Palin. So what is the Arizona Secretary of State going to do? Stand out in front of his office with the press gathered around and tell them that he’s decided that Barack Obama wasn’t born in the United States? Ten minutes later, Obama’s lawyers are filing a lawsuit saying that they complied with the written procedures and that the Secretary of State has knowingly failing to perform the duties of his office. The SoS is not an idiot - he knows he will lose that case and be fired and probably brought up on criminal charges. He’s not going to volunteer for self-destruction. Or will the SoS try to obfuscate? Maybe claim that he needs a second copy of the document or a copy of a newspaper account or a signed statement from the doctor? Again, birthers can move the goalpost like this but court officers cannot. The procedure for establishing citizenship will be outlined in the law and the SoS will not have any leeway in following it. So the SoS will have to stand there and state that _“Yes, I have reviewed the documents and Barack Obama had legally demonstrated that he was born in the United States and is eligible to be elected President.”_ And the relatively sane right wingers know all this. If they have an agenda it’s hoping that this issue will fire up the left. They’re hoping that people fight this proposal and defeat it. Because then they’ll win. They won’t have to establish any legal system like they proposed and they can fall back on to rumors. They can start whispering _“Obama’s supporters fought against a simple test of proof of citizenship. Why? Because they must have something to hide! They didn’t want Arizona to enact a citizenhip test because they knew Obama would fail it!”_ And you guys are falling for it. If this was 1992 and Arizona was proposing a law requiring all Presidential candidates to pass a marital fidelity test, then I’d say yes, Democrats need to fight this proposal. Or if it were 2000 and some state was proposing a test that candidates have never used illegal drugs - then yes, the Republicans would want to fight that. But this proposal is not like those. Obama is a natural-born citizen and has no reason to fear any test of his citizenship. Stop acting like he needs protection from this. Let Arizona establish a citizenship test so Obama can take it and pass it. Turn Obama’s birth into a non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/36 "2010-04-23T14:57:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > John McCain’s? I thought that one was chiseled into stone somewhere. Really makes it hard to make copies, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/37 "2010-04-23T14:58:57Z")
In fact, let me go one step further. Tell me what law it is you think they’re going to use against Obama. Write it down and post it. But keep this in mind. It has to apply to all candidates. So invent a law that some right winger can enact that will target Obama. Show me a procedure that both Obama and Palin can follow - but that Palin will pass while Obama will fail. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/38 "2010-04-23T15:14:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So what is the Arizona Secretary of State going to do? Stand out in front of his office with the press gathered around and tell them that he’s decided that Barack Obama wasn’t born in the United States? Ten minutes later, Obama’s lawyers are filing a lawsuit saying that they complied with the written procedures and that the Secretary of State has knowingly failing to perform the duties of his office. The SoS is not an idiot - he knows he will lose that case and be fired and probably brought up on criminal charges. He’s not going to volunteer for self-destruction. I genuinely think that you and I don’t follow the same political process. I think there are SoSs who would indeed have such press conferences. And then the fur would start flying, and Freepers would declare how noble and persecuted they are, and they would eventually withdraw the declaration, and they would go on to be heroes of the right. Because no one would have the _will_ to fire him or bring him up on charges, and firings and charges probably wouldn’t stick because he was told to use his judgment in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/39 "2010-04-23T15:23:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I disagree. If Obama had a chance to face the accusation squarely in court he would win. If fifty different secretaries of state, Democrats and Republican, all stated that Barack Hussein Obama has produced valid evidence that he is a natural-born American citizen, then it would have demolished the birther movement. > > Sure there would be a few diehards who would never accept the truth. But the birthers would be like the [people](http://educate-yourself.org/cn/baracksoetorofamilyphoto16sep08.shtml) who believe Barack Obama is a lizard man from outer space - so far out on the fringe they don’t matter anymore. And if one Attorney General did not agree then it would outweigh all the rest. We already have over 20 state Attorneys General challenging the Constitutionality of UHC. States with a bunch of yahoo voters elect yahoo politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063/40 "2010-04-23T15:25:24Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > I thought that one was chiseled into stone somewhere. Really makes it hard to make copies, btw. All kidding aside, comparing McCain’s birth to Obama’s shows how selective the birthers are. McCain was born at a U.S. Navy hospital in the Panama Canal Zone. I don’t know what authority even issues the birth certificate under those circumstances, or who could now confirm its authenticity. (While I was checking my facts for this post, I discovered that McCain’s mother is still alive. She turned 98 in February. Good for her, and I hope she is in fine health.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-arizona-proposes-letting-states-decide-presidential-candidate-eligibility/537063.md?page=3)