# Now Episode II is racist??? Give your head a shake people!!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2002, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816 "2002-05-19T14:20:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/121 "2002-05-21T00:54:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > **Now you come back with this crap that I’m practically accusing you of being a bad person and in the Klan? Screw you, if you can’t talk about this like a civilized person.** Sorry about that **pld**. I’ve been feeling attacked, and I took it out on you. I realise you _aren’t_ one of the many saying I must be racist to see it, and I appologise for lashing out. What I was trying to get at is that _to me_, the Nemoidians sound like how Jews used to be portrayed, which has nothing to do with how they actually are. That is why I made the point about Jar-Jar. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/122 "2002-05-21T00:55:54Z")
…Although I guess now you are, **pld** … ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/123 "2002-05-21T01:10:24Z")
No, you’re right, grendel–I can’t hold you to a standard I’m not willing to meet myself. I’m sorry I said that–I don’t think you’re a racist. And I’m willing to concede that if I were not white, I might view things differently. But I think that there is sufficient disagreement among just what the stereotypes are supposed to be that they might not be anything at all; and that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. It also seems, and please don’t take this wrong, that a lot of these complaints are made by people are, to use a phrase, tin-eared when it comes to dialects. monstro says, "Maybe Ahmed Best’s Gungan voice doesn’t mirror Jamaican patois exactly . . " but to someone who hears accents well, it doesn’t mirror it at _all_. You know who Jar Jar sounds like to me? That “Jackalope” character that “comedian” Dave Coulier used to do on “America’s Funniest People”–a high-pitched, slightly strangled cartoon voice. He also sounds a little like the little alien dude in those “Lilo & Stitch” trailers. But Jamaican? I was stupefied the first time I heard someone claim that, because it isn’t even close. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/124 "2002-05-21T01:12:25Z")
> [@](#): > > This whole silly thing… This really is silly. It’s like we’re arguing over an abstract painting. Some of us see bicycles. Others see roller coasters. And then a few others see corn fields in Nebraska. We’ll never see eye-to-eye on this stupid shit of a movie. I can’t believe we’ve spent two days arguing about which ethnic groups certain fictional characters most resemble. It’s time for me to go back to my damn nematodes and library books and leave the computer alone. I’ve been cussing a lot and I blame YOU people. [sub]yes, I said YOU people :p[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/125 "2002-05-21T01:30:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > **Funny you should mention that character, though–he’s played by Vincent Gardenia, an Italian, and I remarked that, if anything, Watto sounds Italian. Funny.** Just one quick note, I was referring to the original Mr. Mushnik, [Mel Welles](http://us.imdb.com/Name?Welles,+Mel+(I)). To me, this points up what I was saying earlier: old movie geeks like myself are the ones most likely to notice the aliens portrayal. I will grant that it is possible I’m reading too much into it, although the fact that I saw episode one before I’d heard anything about the “racism” would lead me to believe there is something there. I arived at the conclusion independantly, and I doubt I’m the only one. I don’t think it was intended to be offensive, it was just lazy characterization. This is a pretty silly thing to be arguing about, but it just annoys me the way these claims are dismissed out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/126 "2002-05-21T02:07:18Z")
> [@](#): > > This is a pretty silly thing to be arguing about, but it just annoys me the way these claims are dismissed out of hand. They haven’t been dismised out of hand; they have been refuted. Learn to tell the difference. As far as Watto=Mel Welles=Jewish stereotype, bullshit. Yiddish speech patterns have telltale chacteristics: putting the verb at the end of the sentence(Ten hours overtime I have to work), an upward intonation at the end of declaratiive sentences, placing prepositional phrases at the beginning of the sentence (By him he’s a cook; by Julia Child, he’s no cook.) For further reading, I refer you to Leo Rosten’s Hyman Kaplan books and _The Joy of Yiddish_. To put it simply, you do not know what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/127 "2002-05-21T02:40:50Z")
Some people seem to be having a hard time understanding my point, so let me explain again. I am not comparing these aliens to any actual real life racial characteristic. I am comparing them to stereotypes. The character Mel Welles played in **Little Shop of Horrors** was jewish, to tell the truth I have no Idea if he is jewish or not in real life. The way he spoke was similar to Watto. **gobear** , it was at the bottom of the last page, so I’m not sure if you saw it but I mentioned another example of a stereotype that you don’t have to be a bigot to see. The gym boys in **Gentlemen Prefer Blondes**. A lot of people seem to have a hard time accepting that I could see a stereotype in a non-human character. Donkey was called a stretch, Donkey _was_ Eddie Murphy. He was pretty damn funny, but ignoring his _blackness_ seems rediculous (for gods sake, he sings _Baby Got Back_). [sub]and Shreck wasn’t scottish either[/sub]. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/128 "2002-05-21T04:37:04Z")
Ya know, I’m not upset about AOTC. I actually like the movie. I’ll accept that what I perceive as stereotypical elements are unintentional (and, as has been pointed out, rather tenuous, although I still think the Neimoidians sound like Charlie Chan). What I was upset about was the Mike Wong article and Kwyjibo saying that anyone who perceives a stereotype must subscribe to it and therefore must be a racist. Kwyjibo seems to have conceded that point, so I don’t have much else to say. ---
**Author:** ![Dragon\_Ash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b3f665/32.png) [@Dragon\_Ash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragon_Ash)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/129 "2002-05-21T04:37:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\* > > And–I repeat–a Jamaican did his voice. > > \*\* So, like, if a German or Aussie had done the role, ‘accent’ intact, then Lucas would have been racist for portraying Germans or Aussies in such a bad light? Suppose someome with a Midwestern US accent had done the role. No doubt our brethren in the Corn Belt states would have been up in arms about being portrayed in such an evil manner. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: My eyes can not possible go back in their sockets far enough to express my entire and utter disdain for this ‘racist Star Wars movies’ argument. These people would find racism on the back of a Cheerios box. Get a _fucking_ life, already. ---
**Author:** ![Dragon\_Ash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b3f665/32.png) [@Dragon\_Ash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragon_Ash)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/130 "2002-05-21T04:48:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\* > > And–I repeat–a Jamaican did his voice. > > \*\* So, like, if a German or Aussie had done the role, ‘accent’ intact, then Lucas would have been racist for portraying Germans or Aussies in such a bad light? Suppose someome with a Midwestern US accent had done the role. No doubt our brethren in the Corn Belt states would have been up in arms about being portrayed in such an evil manner. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: My eyes can not possible go back in their sockets far enough to express my entire and utter disdain for this ‘racist Star Wars movies’ argument. These people would find racism on the back of a Cheerios box. Get a _fucking_ life, already. ---
**Author:** ![Dragon\_Ash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b3f665/32.png) [@Dragon\_Ash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragon_Ash)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/131 "2002-05-21T04:51:32Z")
Sorry for the double-posting - I got a time-out error the first time… ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/132 "2002-05-21T05:34:10Z")
Sorry, no cite (but what the hell, this is the Pit after all), but Lucas claimed after TPM came out that the Japanese press were all a twitter about the _homage_ to Akira Kurisawa the Neomodians were. Interesting, isn’t it (if true)? The very people who _might_ be offended a stereotype in an American movie, instead see it as an _accolade_ to one of their greatest movie directors. (Don’t forget that Lucas is a _big_ fan of Kurisawa’s work.) I thought the Neomodians were _stylized_ after the Japanese, and I thought it was cool when I saw the movie. Why? Because I think the Japanese have a very noble culture that in many ways is superior to American and I _like_ seeing references to Japanese culture in movies. Hell, do the Jews get upset at the Vulcan “live long and prosper” gesture (which Leonard Nimoy claims he copied from a “secret” gesture that a rabbi used when giving a blessing to a congregation)? Not that I’ve heard. So why are people getting upset and screaming that Lucas is racist? Probably for the same reason that people started screaming that Bert and Ernie were gay: They don’t have a life, and they want people to pay attention to them. How many people would think that a place called “Wang’s Italian Cafe” would serve authentic Italian food? Not too god-damn many. If I want what I _think_ is authentic ethnic food, I’m going to go to a place where the help all appears to be _from_ the part of the world one typically associates with the particular ethnic food that I’m eating. Does that make me a bigot? Perhaps. I don’t know, and really don’t care. All I know is that the best Chinese food I ate wasn’t in some chain restaurant owned by a bunch of “round eyes.” (FTR, I’m Irish, Welsh, and Swiss, plus Goddess knows what else.) ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/133 "2002-05-21T05:43:53Z")
See, I haven’t seen anyone get upse and scream that George Lucas is a racist. I don’t consider him a racist, it just bothers me when what is an obvious observation is dismissed out of hand by those who don’t see it. The only ones crying racism here, in this thread, are the ones insisting there are no stereotypes in Star Wars. ---
**Author:** ![Dragon\_Ash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b3f665/32.png) [@Dragon\_Ash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragon_Ash)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/134 "2002-05-21T05:49:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > \*\* > The only ones crying racism here, in this thread, are the ones insisting there are no stereotypes in Star Wars. \*\* No one said there are no _stereotypes_ in Star Wars. Come on! The whole friggen’ series is a stereotype - cops and robbers (or cowboys and indians, if you will) in outer space. Good vs Evil, etc. etc. Sort of an old concept, probably going back to oh, say Beowulf. Stereotypes are necessary tools/devices in movies, books etc. to enable the audience to quickly and correctly ‘identify’ with a character. The guy in the black hat and on the black horse in the bad guy. Does this mean ‘blacks’ are inherently ‘bad’? No. The guy on the white horse in the white shirt is the good guy. Does this mean ‘whites’ are inherently ‘good’? No. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/135 "2002-05-21T06:40:18Z")
May I just add that when I saw the TPM, I _really_ thought the trade federation guys were going for a Charlie Chan accent? I don’t really care, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/136 "2002-05-21T09:53:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > \*\*How about Donkey, in **Shreck**. Am I a bigot for noticing that the character is the standard issue “funny” black sidekick that has been in use since Eddie Murphy played the role in **48 Hours**? \*\* Now Donkey is racist? Eddie played the same ‘Donkey’ charater in 48 hours??? Fuck off. I’m a Scot. (Born and **fuckin’** bred in Scotland) Should I have been offended by the fact that Shreck had a Scotish accent??? Are all Scots big green and evil? By your logic they should be! Hell the fuckin Nims represent Asians… Yeah…it’s late for me here, and I’m tired, but this just pissed me ‘right the fuck’ off! ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/137 "2002-05-21T10:04:52Z")
Jesus Christ there are some idiots in this world. Read my posts to this thread, now read them again- get someone to help with the big words. I never said Donkey was racist, I never said **TPM** was racist. Your self righteous rage at being called a big green ogre is misdirected, not to mention silly. I really don’t think I can simplify what I said any further. ---
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/138 "2002-05-21T10:14:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > \*\*Jesus Christ there are some idiots in this world. Read my posts to this thread, now read them again- get someone to help with the big words. I never said Donkey was racist, I never said **TPM** was racist. > > Your self righteous rage at being called a big green ogre is misdirected, not to mention silly. > > I really don’t think I can simplify what I said any further. \*\* Dude. You said that that: "[Donkey] is the standard issue “funny” black sidekick ". Where the fuck does this crap come from? I didn’t say that you said that Scots were big, green, and evil, but hell…your statment about Donkey…I mean…come on!!! You actually watched that movie and saw Donkey as a stereotype??? If so, then why not Shrek himself??? Or is it, by your definition, ok to make fun of Scots? Since your grasping straws…answer me that! ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/139 "2002-05-21T11:17:51Z")
Stereotype. Negative? not always. Intentional? not always. You notice that a character resembles a stereotype. Does this make you a) observant b) a bigot c) oversensitive? Donkey was very funny, he was also the standard issue Orlando Jones/ Eddie Griffin character (not really, those two are bad copies of Eddie Murphy). If you dissagree, more power to you. As I’ve said all along, People observe things differently. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816/140 "2002-05-21T11:57:45Z")
I didn’t realize that Eddie Murphy represented the whole comedy sidekick routine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-episode-ii-is-racist-give-your-head-a-shake-people/109816.md?page=8)