# Now I Can Rest in Peace, I Have the Full Story of Pat Tillman's Death
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 6, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431 "2004-12-06T22:40:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@The\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Truth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/21 "2004-12-07T03:13:22Z")
> [@Loopydude](#):
>
> You got people bombing weddings, wasting friendlies, abusing prisoners…
Regarding the wedding, that was a terrorist wedding, and they deserved to get bombed. If you’re going to complain, at least get the facts straight. That wedding bombing was no mistake.
---
### Author:  [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/22 "2004-12-07T03:16:43Z")
> [@The Truth](#):
>
> Regarding the wedding, that was a terrorist wedding, and they deserved to get bombed. If you’re going to complain, at least get the facts straight. That wedding bombing was no mistake.
Excuse me?
A terrorist wedding?
Two terrorists got married??
So the women and children that died in the attack were killed on purpose?
And this is ok with you?
You are one sick fuck.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Truth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/23 "2004-12-07T03:19:14Z")
> [@Reeder](#):
>
> Excuse me?
>
> A terrorist wedding?
>
> Two terrorists got married??
>
> So the women and children that died in the attack were killed on purpose?
>
> And this is ok with you?
>
> You are one sick fuck.
Bad people have parties too, which is pretty much what the military has said on the matter.
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### Author:  [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/24 "2004-12-07T03:24:28Z")
You know…I never thought I would ever find anyone to raise my opinion of **Brutus** , **Sam** and **Milroyj**.
But they would never condone the killing of innocent children.
You are surely the sickest fuck on this board.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Truth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/25 "2004-12-07T03:29:31Z")
> [@Reeder](#):
>
> You know…I never thought I would ever find anyone to raise my opinion of **Brutus** , **Sam** and **Milroyj**.
>
> But they would never condone the killing of innocent children.
>
> You are surely the sickest fuck on this board.
What children ? Keep watching Al-Jazeera friend.
\*\*Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said six women were among the dead, but he said there was no evidence any children died in the raid near the Syrian border. Coalition officials have said as many as 40 people were killed.
He said that video showing dead children killed was actually recorded in Ramadi, far from the attack scene.\*\*
[http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/22/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/22/iraq.main/index.html)
---
### Author:  [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/26 "2004-12-07T03:34:05Z")
Is this the same military that said Iraq was brimming with WMD?
He said it was filmed in Ramadi? Yet offered no evidence?
You sick fuck.
---
### Author:  [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/27 "2004-12-07T03:38:54Z")
> [@Reeder](#):
>
> Of course you don’t. One mention, maybe two on the news. Why is that?
To be honest, the names aren’t familiar, but the Illinois National Guard dropping a bomb of the Canadians got a lot of play here in Chicago (to be honest, I don’t recall hearing the outcome of the court martial if it’s even over yet).
\*\*Loopydude \*\* phrased my sentiments more coherently than I did. Will something good come out of this? Hopefully, but I’m not holding my breath.
The other question would of course be, “what good,” but I’ll leave that up to you to decide.
---
### Author:  [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/28 "2004-12-07T04:01:34Z")
The other reason Tillman’s death received so much notice?
In case you men didn’t notice, the guy was gorgeous. Stunning. He looks like some kind of X-Men (-Man?) come to life.
Same thing happened when that sniper killed a girl at Penn State in 1996. The dead girl was a kinda plain, kinda fat brunette and her photo wasn’t shown anywhere near as often as that of the sniper, who was an edgy-looking slender blonde.
It’s not a moral issue. Interesting images sell better in a visual medium. Simple as that.
---
### Author:  [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/29 "2004-12-07T04:19:02Z")
That Tillman died in a friendly fire incident is, if not irrelevant, not very important. Lots of soldiers die or are maimed by misadventure. What is important is that in this era when not everybody is intimately acquainted with a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine, when the volunteer system has to a great extent rendered the armed forces faceless and impersonal, Tillman gave us some one who we had at least heard of. I can’t know his motivations for enlisting, whether it was a sense of duty or an impulse of martial zeal or an uncontrollable impulse. It doesn’t make any difference. He is lost. He is lost because he went out in obedience to our wishes as translated by the people we chose to represent us.
All too often, maybe as a matter of routine, a soldier’s death is simply a random thing. If you talk to men who in their youth were soldiers they will tell you that things just happened without any rational. The man to their left, they will tell you, just crumbled, inexplicably leaving them unharmed. A man just ahead of them disappeared in a flash of light and a gout of smoke and debris leaving nothing behind that looked like a man. Tillman’s death was just as random and unfair as a hundred other deaths, a thousand other deaths, thousands upon thousands of other deaths. There is no good reason that he died and someone else lived. It as if some unknown and unknowing god required a death and reached out, taking this man and leaving another by happenstance. There is no point to trying to reason out why simply because in that last instant there is no why, it just happens and a vital young man is in the twinkling of an eye converted into so much carrion.
So Tillman died. He died for the same reason they all died. His luck ran out. He is to be honored none the less. Honor him as we honor all the others, as one more dead soldier whose luck ran out. Grieve for him as one more dead soldier whose luck ran out.
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### Author:  [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/30 "2004-12-07T04:30:50Z")
**Spavined Gelding** , that, my friend, was brilliant! Absolutely brilliant. Probably the finest piece I’ve ever seen on the boards.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/31 "2004-12-07T05:16:50Z")
FYI, _The Washington Post_, the newspaper reporting the story, has run the photos of every soldier killed in Iraq and Afghanistan so far. I know, I read the paepr every morning, and I’ve seen every installment–the names, the photos, the date and place of each death. The OP’s disgusting accusation that the paper is just interested in notoriety is bullshit.
And yes, Tillman deserves some special recognition. He didn’t join the military to get out of the hood or the farm, or to get money for college, or to gain job experience. He didn’t need anything from the military; his sole desire was to contribute to his nation’s defense, an utterly selfless act. He gave up fame, money, security, a game he loved, to fight for his nation. His was as altruistic an act of sacrifice as it is possible to be. His death, moreover, unfortunately serves as as a high-profile reminder that the military is badly run and more concerned about CYA than about the safety of its personnel.
Go spit on somebody else, pipsqueak.
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### Author:  [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/32 "2004-12-07T05:22:25Z")
**Reeder** wrote
> [@](#):
>
> Is this the same military that said Iraq was brimming with WMD?
Just once it would be nice to see you retract your crap when faced with a reasonable cite.
And just once it would be nice to see you put up a cite for your unreasonable crap.
---
### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/33 "2004-12-07T06:34:58Z")
> [@The Truth](#):
>
> What children ? Keep watching Al-Jazeera friend.
>
> \*\*Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said six women were among the dead, but he said there was no evidence any children died in the raid near the Syrian border. Coalition officials have said as many as 40 people were killed.
>
> He said that video showing dead children killed was actually recorded in Ramadi, far from the attack scene.\*\*
>
> [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/22/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/22/iraq.main/index.html)
Kimmitt’s statement was bullshit from start to finish. Here’s a bit more of it:
> [@](#):
>
> A senior coalition military spokesman said Saturday that dozens of people killed in a U.S. attack in the Iraqi desert early Wednesday were attending a high-level meeting of foreign fighters, not a wedding. Photos shown to reporters in Baghdad support that contention.
>
> Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said six women were among the dead, but he said there was no evidence any children died in the raid near the Syrian border. Coalition officials have said as many as 40 people were killed.
>
> Kimmitt said video showing dead children killed was actually recorded in Ramadi, far from the attack scene.
>
> “There may have been some kind of celebration,” Kimmitt said. “Bad people have celebrations too. Bad people have parties too.”
>
> Kimmitt said troops did not find anything – such as a wedding tent, gifts, musical instruments, decorations or leftover food – that would indicate a wedding had been held.
>
> Most of the men there were of military age, and there were no elders present to indicate a family event, he said.
>
> What was found, he said, indicated the building was used as a way station for foreign fighters crossing into Iraq from Syria to battle the coalition.
Now, here’s a report (from Fox News, no less) from two days later:
> [@](#):
>
> [Iraq Wedding-Party Video Backs Survivors’ Claims
> Monday, May 24, 2004](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120721,00.html)
>
> RAMADI, Iraq — A videotape shows a dozen white pickup trucks speeding through the desert, escorting a bridal car decorated with colorful ribbons. The bride wears a Western-style white bridal dress and veil. The camera captures her stepping out of the car but does not show a close-up.
>
> The videotape obtained Sunday by Associated Press Television News captures a wedding party that survivors say was later attacked by U.S. planes early Wednesday, killing up to 45 people…
>
> “There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration,” Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search) said Saturday. “There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too.”
>
> But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent.
>
> An AP reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many of them on the wedding party video — which runs for several hours.
>
> APTN also traveled to Mogr el-Deeb, 250 miles west of Ramadi, the day after the attack to film what the survivors said was the wedding site. A devastated building and remnants of the tent, pots and pans could be seen, along with bits of what appeared to be the remnants of ordnance, one of which bore the marking “ATU-35,” similar to those on U.S. bombs.
>
> A water tanker truck can be seen in both the video shot by APTN and the wedding tape obtained from a cousin of the groom…
>
> Kimmitt has denied finding evidence that any children died in the raid although a “handful of women” — perhaps four to six — were “caught up in the engagement.”
>
> “They may have died from some of the fire that came from the aircraft,” he told reporters Friday.
>
> However, an AP reporter obtained names of at least 10 children who relatives said had died. Bodies of five of them were filmed by APTN when the survivors took them to Ramadi for burial Wednesday. Iraqi officials said at least 13 children were killed. Mourners say the bride and groom were killed.
> [@Bill H.](#):
>
> Just once it would be nice to see you retract your crap when faced with a reasonable cite.
Same goes for you, sport.
---
### Author:  [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/34 "2004-12-07T13:38:31Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#):
>
> So Tillman died. He died for the same reason they all died. His luck ran out. He is to be honored none the less. Honor him as we honor all the others, as one more dead soldier whose luck ran out. Grieve for him as one more dead soldier whose luck ran out.
Nicely put - but it’s really not quite that simple. We might not know his motives, or even (to address the OP) whether the report of this tragedy is more newsworthy because of his fame, but we do know that soldiers don’t just die because their luck has run out.
Even avoiding the question of whether US soldiers should even be in the Middle East, the whole point of the report was that this could have been avoided. Even other officers realised that, hence the falsification of their reports. So no, luck did not run out, he was killed by misadventure (at best) or gross incompetence.
---
### Author:  [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/35 "2004-12-07T17:46:27Z")
**Desmostylus** wrote
> [@](#):
>
> Same goes for you, sport.
Um, I was talking to Reeder, and I wasn’t talking about weddings or Al-Jazeera. I was talking about his need to spew without any factual backing. You saw a post you disagreed with, and came back with a cite disputing it.
**Reeder** , on the other hand, started off saying nonsense, an obscene insult, and of course no cite:
> [@](#):
>
> Excuse me?
> A terrorist wedding?
> Two terrorists got married??
> So the women and children that died in the attack were killed on purpose?
> And this is ok with you?
> You are one sick fuck.
Then when confronted with a cite, **Reeder** came back with a ridiculously stupid tangent, the repeated obscene insult (gotta give him points for consistency, I guess), but of course again no cite:
> [@](#):
>
> Is this the same military that said Iraq was brimming with WMD?
> He said it was filmed in Ramadi? Yet offered no evidence?
> You sick fuck.
The signal to noise ratio is just way to low in the man’s posts.
---
### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/36 "2004-12-07T18:28:07Z")
> [@The Truth](#):
>
> Regarding the wedding, that was a terrorist wedding, and they deserved to get bombed. If you’re going to complain, at least get the facts straight. That wedding bombing was no mistake.
Actually, I was thinking of the wedding in Afghanistan they bombed in 2002, where they killed and wounded a bunch of revellers firing guns in the air. The pilot claimed he was taking antaircraft fire. Oops.
---
### Author:  [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/37 "2004-12-07T23:14:40Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> FYI, _The Washington Post_And yes, Tillman deserves some special recognition. He didn’t join the military to get out of the hood or the farm, or to get money for college, or to gain job experience. He didn’t need anything from the military; his sole desire was to contribute to his nation’s defense, an utterly selfless act. Go spit on somebody else, pipsqueak.
GoBear, I’m the OP. Please read again. I didn’t spit on Pat Tillman, you horse’s ass. I spat (apparently) on the Washington Post.
I said I really don’t dispute his sacrifice. I admire what he did. I just wish the news organizations wouldn’t assume I’d be fascinated.
And I heard this on news radio. I don’t read the WaPo. I was not ignorant of Pat Tillman’s death until 5 minutes ago.
I’ve read some eloquent opinions contrary to mine. In this case, yours wasn’t one.
:wally
---
### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-can-rest-in-peace-i-have-the-full-story-of-pat-tillmans-death/278431/38 "2004-12-08T06:33:03Z")
> [@Bill H](#):
>
> …I wasn’t talking about weddings or Al-Jazeera…
Fair enough.
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