those damn dastardly French!!! Sacre Bleu! :rolleyes:
U-S-A!
U-S-A!
U-S-A!
History is made!
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When did “peleton” become a word?
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When someone provides me with objective and verifiable evidence that Lance Armstrong is cheating, I’ll believe it. Until then, I am quite skeptical of threemae’s non-stop claims of Armstrong’s dishonesty despite the fact that, although he is probably the most scrutinized athlete on the planet, there’s no evidence he’s doped.
Put up or shut up, threemae.
What I know about Lance and his life has pretty much been bits and peices I’ve read from the likes of People Magazine. I haven’t been following his career really until last year, and then, it was only in July. So, I’m a recent newbie to this world of racing. Don’t worry, my interest in the sport will wane soon enough.
Anywhooo,
I was under the impression that his wife asked for the divorce because his drive to ride, ride, ride.
Basically, his career consumed him. That is hard enough on the regular schmoes who are mere fat mortals trying to get ahead in life. Add in fame, press, public exposure and that entire ball of wax, it would crush even the strongest of marriages.
Yes, she stood by him when he had cancer. Yes, they had children (3?) together. But, she was probably a single mom in reality, only married to someone that was never around or totally preoccupied with his job. He isn’t the first guy to be absorbed in his work. He won’t be the last. She probably wanted a clean break from the insanity for it, for herself and her children. When they married, who knew what course their lives - Lance’s life - would take and that his career would just explode. I mean, people dream of winning things like that, but 6 times? In-con-ceiv-able.
Whether Lance cheated on his wife, I had never heard that and have no clue.
The fact that he is dating Cheryl Crow, a fellow Texan, a musician, and celebrity who has made it to the upper levels of her business ( a gruesome industry that is the same as a treacherous mountian climb) and stayed there for years, and has to handle the media, hype and constant press, probably says that the two of them work better together with the insanity that surrounds them. She probably understands the game that is her life and now their life far better than an average mere mortal.
That said. Lance is da bomb.
I’ll shut up now.
If everybody knows that everybody in the Tour is doping, why don’t the authorities shut the whole thing down?
That could be also. I just got the impression from one of the article’s that I’d read, that he was already stepping out. But I didn’t pay enough attention to the whole thing to have done more than read a few articles in a docs waiting room or something, so it could very well be that I remembered it wrong.
Yeah, yeah, and Tom Cruise is gay. Trouble is, no one is ever able to produce a smoking gun. Why is that?
The USPS’s former soigneur not good enough for you?
A whistleblower will be forgotten by the entire sports watching public in about 30, nay more like 5 seconds. You accept that there have been whistleblowers in other sports, don’t you? Name one. Describe to me how their brilliant career is currently going.
The term you are looking for is “career limiting move”.
If one assumes that the whole peloton dopes, then this is not inexplicable at all. It is exactly what one would expect. If an insider knows the whole peloton dopes, that insider probably would not see see any reason to pick on any given cyclist and make that particular cyclist’s life hell by giving specific testimony to law enforcement officials against them. So they make broader more general allegations in books and so on.
Precisely, and exactly why an insider who knows what’s going on would not go to those in charge of the sport. I am yet to see or be involved with any sport in which the teams and those involved with them identify more with sports officials than with their colleagues and competitors.
… and OJ was innocent. There are neat little homilies for every situation.
Interestingly, there is an SDMB poster who has posted in this very thread who has an immense personal knowledge of elite cycling. I am talking about someone who has been on training rides with the winner of the green jersey in this year’s tour. And his contribution to this thread was to exhibit a goodly knowledge of performance enhancing drugs, and pointedly not comment one way or the other on doping in the Tour. Not interested perhaps? Or maybe he’s being appropriately discreet?
Perhaps he can comment himself.
Perhaps he can comment about Robbie McEwen, Stuart O’Grady, and Michael Rogers as well, since he is inside.
Cheaters are cheaters, if they wear the yellow or the green, aren’t they?
We can all make accusations…
Mundane, if you are suggesting that there is a nationalistic element to my position and that I wouldn’t say what I say if an Aussie was winning the Tour, you are very very wrong.
I have as much doubt that the Aussie Tourists dope as I do that LA dopes. Which is to say: very little at all.
While we’re on the subject of nationalism, hands up all those 'Mericans currently professing indignance about unproved accusations against LA who would be equally indignant about those accusations if the current six times winner of the Tour was Russian or French? [Actually, don’t bother to put your hand up, I’m unlikely to believe you anyway].
And as to the whole “proof” thing, there is another point I want to make. There are two questions involved here
1/ Should LA suffer some form of sanction for doping?
2/ Does LA dope?
My answer to the second question is “I think he probably does”. My answer to the first question is “hell no, not without strong proof, and even with proof what’s the point in sanctioning one man for what I suspect is a sport-wide phenomena?”
There appear to me to be many in this debate who are keen to talk loudly about a standard of proof appropriate to the first question in order to avoid facing up to the probable answer to the second.
Oh very interested… exceedingly so.
My answer to the doping assertion is this… is the Ferrari F1 Team guilty of using banned technology to achieve their invincible dominance over the last 5 years? No, definitely not. They would doubtless be caught.
Are Ferrari using some unique technology known only to the Ferrari Team which arguably will be banned in the future when it’s existence becomes known? Almost certainly.
Are Ferrari breaking the rules? No. How can you break a rule which currently doesn’t exist? Are Ferrari breaking “the spirit of the sport” by developing technology which gives them a competitive edge? No. That’s the goal of the sport.
Insert “The USPS Pro Cycling Team” above wherever you see “Ferrari F1 Team” and you’ll easily see the parallels I’m alluding to. Yes, it’s true that Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barichello put in huge testing miles and are incredibly dedicated to the cause. And that’s also quite true of the USPS Team members too. Nonetheless, the parallels, and the ethics of the matter are eerily similar.
Every rider in pro cycling effectively signs a contract which allows the Team Medical Officers to inject vitamin supplements and a whole shitload of other stuff which are regarded as “quite okay” and within the spirit of the rules. The grey area is this - if a scientist out there can synthetically duplicate a nutritional supplement which naturally makes the body function better - at what point does it lose status as a “nutritional supplement” and become a “doping agent” instead?
My position on the entire sport of pro cycling is this - every singler rider, from domestique to the absolute monster stars of the sport - takes shitloads upon shitloads of nutritional supplements every year - and almost all of it is injected. Lance Armstrong takes shitloads of nutritional supplements too. Make no mistake. It’s all in the definitions. Lance’s position is a simple one… and a valid one too… he takes absolutely nothing which is illegal.
But does he take nutritional supplements? Absolutely. Does he take other medications which are legacy issues relating to minimising chances of cancer remission? Almost certainly. Does he take nutritional supplements which are cutting edge that no other team in the peloton has access too? Absolutely. Are all of these injections capable of adding up to a form of technology which might be banned in the future? Possibly. Maybe even probably.
Interestingly, Robbie McEwen made a point of inserting a “no needles” clause in his current Lotto contract when he joined 3 years ago. That’s what he tells us guys who’ve known him for over a decade. I have no reason to disbelieve him. I’ll bet you he takes a shitload of “cutting edge” vitamin pills though.
- Yes
- No Idea
To turn it back on you -
- Should Ian Thorpe suffer some form of sanction for doping?
How about Cathy Freeman?
Yes or no?
Why would you be unlikely to believe me? Why would you think that I would care where LA hails from??? You should belive me, because I couldn’t give two shits about the tour or anybody in it.
I’m still waiting for proof of doping for Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa. (Sammy ain’t from around here. does that count?) All I have seen are allegations without evidence. Maybe the evidence is out there and jst hasn’t come to light yet. Perfectly willing to accept that possibility. I’m just gonna wait till comes, though. because there’s still the possibilty that there *isn’t * that proof.
Boo Boo Foo, thank you for a couple of very informative posts. I’d like to ask you a question that sort of cuts to the quick a little more. Never mind legalities for the moment, would you say, in your opinion, that LA’s victories have been legitimate? I don’t just mean legal, but do you think they’ve been genuine achievements within the current standards and practices of the game? Has Lance won six tours or has medical technology won those Tours (I know that’s not a simple question, I guess I’m just asking if you think that Lance has likely “cheated” within the spirit of the sport).
Princhester, I can guarantee you it’s not an American thing for me. I’m not like that. I’m just fascinated by virtuosos. I like to root for records and history. I would still be drawn to a rider who was setting these kinds of records no matter what his nationality (although it might have taken longer for a European cyclist to appear on my American radar), and I would still be disappointed if the accomplishments were not achieved honestly.
Well, I think that this thread is a lot more reasonable than when it started, so, thanks I guess.
I don’t mean to orphan my own thread, and I won’t, but this has been literally the most insane weekend of my life (top five at least) and all I can think of now is sleep and food.
You’re welcome sir!
Oh, inarguably. If every rider in pro cycling was locked away in a controlled environment for 12 months at a time and only allowed to eat exactly what the UCI gave them to eat, and if no one had even one injection for the entire year, Lance Armstrong would most likely still win by similar percentages I would wager. However, there’s a caveat coming up…
OK, firstly, nobody but Lance Armstrong has pushed those pedals. He’s responsible for his wins, no one else. But here’s the caveat… there’s no way I’d suggest Lance has cheated in the context of doing anything his fellow competitors AREN’T doing but equally true is that there’s no way he would have won 6 Tours if medical science hadn’t stepped in and saved him from cancer and THEN allowed him to shave 8 kilos of weight which he would never have lost. Moreover, his non remission medications almost certainly overlap with the unexpected benefit of maintaining that “concentration camp appearance” he’s currently got. And that’s part of the grey area I was talking about before.
Ultimately, the only true answer for the sport in terms of being “drug free” is to physically lock riders into controlled environments for 10 months at a time. And I can’t see that happening to be honest. But it would unquestionably result in a level playing field. Probably a slower average speed too I daresay.
You’re quite determined to try to turn this into something nationalistic aren’t you? Did you read my last post at all? If you did, you certainly didn’t understand it.
Fuck off, shit-for-brains. Demonstrate some basic intelligence and rationality and you might be worth replying to.
Thanks for your input, BBF. Very interesting. But this is the bit that I doubt. How do you explain the Millar thing? You say “doubtless be caught” but Millar seems to have managed to pass all tests, and was only caught in a fairly roundabout way, not by a methodical and unavoidable process.
If you don’t mind me commenting, DtG. What gets up my nose particularly about **Mundane ** and others is their kneejerk assumption that anyone who uses the words “Lance Armstrong” and “doping” in the same sentence is just demonstrating some nationalistic hatred of the man, or suggesting that his wins are illegitimate.
I’m more cynical and sceptical than BBF and think that probably all the teams including USPS are doping not just on things that will be banned but on things that are. But as I’ve said before, I’m generally pretty relaxed about it. I have a slight concern that this makes cycling a bit too much like Formula One (ie takes away from the human effort thing). I also think that if medical technology is going to be a part of the sport then lets get it out on the table and admit that, rather than live a lie.
But all that said I don’t doubt that LA is the greatest out there and deserved to win. No question.
And spooje, chill. My comments about nationalism were directed to “those 'Mericans currently professing indignance about unproved accusations against LA”. I didn’t read any of your posts as doing so.
I think my posts a little more forceful than I meant it.
My apologies.
Can I borrow that broad-brush? I want to paint my house in one day.
Fuck-head.
BTW, I’m an American, not a 'Merican. In case there was confusion. Take your digs at world politics, but don’t insult the citizens of the US.