# Now I see what MacKinnon was on about **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054 "2003-05-04T18:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/1 "2003-05-04T18:57:19Z")
What the fuck is wrong with men? I was reading _Hustler_ (for the articles, naturally), and I came across these gems; From an article about dating strippers: **"The first [stripper] I dated would always grow quiet after sex," recalls Steve. "I’d make the mistake of asking what was wrong, and she’d tell me how she was molested by half the damn neighbourhood as a kid. That was the last thing I wanted to hear after I’d just cum on her face."** **Some men find happiness dating strippers. “I tell her nice things because I know she’s needy, and in return I get my brains fucked out,” Boasts Jack Higgins, a computer repair man from Ottawa. "I can even cheat on her and she stays with me because she has no self-respect."** **[Club-owner Dave Miller says;] "If you are going to date a peeler, you’d better bang her right and give her the abuse she is looking for. If you don’t, she’ll walk all over you."** :eek: So, I guess now interpersonal relationships are get-them-before-they-get-you usefests where men and women jockey to take advantage of one another! I guess I didn’t get that memo. Now, on to an article about Realdoll, the $6,000 U.S. lifelike sex doll that can be custom-made to resemble models and ex-wives: **Russell Briggs, a packing operator at a plant near Peterborough, ON (_kfl’s note: I live near there_-) claims meeting and dating actual women has always been more trouble than it’s worth.** And now that he has this “sex surrogate”, he talks like a fucking serial killer: **"What would happen to her if I died? The thought of her being with another man upsets both of us very much. I talked with her about it a while back, and she told me she wants to be buried with me. The idea of death has always bothered me. But if I can be buried with her in a lovers’ embrace, death does not seem as bad."** I am all for sexual liberation. I am what could be called “pro-pornography”. I never bought the argument that porn makes men violent or conditions them to objectify women. But now I don’t know WHAT to think. I don’t even know what to do with these quotes. If I am being whooshed, I will be greatly relieved. But I have looked for disclaimers on both articles and found none. I know I shouldn’t be surprised at finding statements like this in a porno magazine, but the level of misogyny, alienation and undercurrent of rage are so _ **extreme** _. I always wrote off the “misogyny” touted by MacKinnon et al as frat-boy naivete, and most of the inflammatory stuff in porn really comes off as innocence/ignorance. It never scared me like this does. I would never want to be buying groceries next to men who thought these things so sincerely that they would allow themselves to be quoted on them. I have so many thoughts swirling around I can’t even rant clearly. What the FUCK is wrong with these shit-for-brains cock-dangling weirdos? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/2 "2003-05-04T19:11:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kung fu lola \* > **I was reading _Hustler_** And what exactly did you expect to see? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/3 "2003-05-04T19:22:16Z")
**ruadh** , I would refer you to the last 4 paragraphs of my post. Also, just letting everyone know that, as a Good Citizen of the SDMB, I have emailed a mod to get rid of the duplicate thread. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/4 "2003-05-04T19:41:27Z")
I’m very pleased that Russell of Peterborough prefers laxex chicks to us gals of flesh. I hope he and Polly Styrene have a very happy afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/5 "2003-05-04T20:36:03Z")
I figure most of the “articles” in Hustler are written for the WTF factor. I don’t think most of the readership thinks like Mr. Briggs, I think most of the readership have the same reaction as the OP. After \ “enjoying” the photography, they read the articles and have a good chuckle at the freaky-freaks. Odds are, the majority of the readership of Hustler has a pretty pathetic sex life, or at least not the sort of sex life they wish they had. At least, I know _I_ don’t. So, although I might be a single 27 year-old living in his parents’ garage, at least I’m not paying $6,000 dollars for a life size fuckable Barbie doll. Kinda makes me feel better about myself. I’m also pretty sure that 99% of the articles are made up out of wholecloth. Think how much research it would take to find someone who has such a strange and pathetic sex life as Russell Briggs, _and is willing to discuss it in a internationally published magazine._ Including details like his name and hometown. Finding a guy like that requires a whole hell of a lot more investigative journalism than the budget of a mid-scale nudie mag probably allows for. One of the funniest Hustler articles I ever read was an “Interview with a gay-basher.” It read quite a bit like [this](http://www.theonion.com/onion3604/why_do_all_these.html), except with an absolute straight face. “So, I had to duck into this gay porn theater, just to get out of the rain. I’m not gay, you know! I hate that shit. Anyway, the next thing I know, this faggot is sucking my cock! I kicked his ass as soon as he finished, of course, 'cause I hate that gay shit.” Then the Hustler reporter would get all indignant and tell the guy off. And then the guy would show up a few days later to continue the interview. Transparently fake, but I almost wish it were real: if only all homophobes were that transparently closeted. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/6 "2003-05-04T20:39:20Z")
Hey, to be fair to _Hustler_, you just **brushed** right past the Pulitzer-worthy article on the political fortunes of ethnic Russians living in Estonia. It was right after the money shot on page 76. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/7 "2003-05-04T20:56:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kung fu lola \* > I’d make the mistake of asking what was wrong, and she’d tell me how she was molested by half the damn neighbourhood as a kid. That was the last thing I wanted to hear after I’d just cum on her face. It’s the romance of it all. Break’s me up every time … _hold me, someone …_ ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/8 "2003-05-05T01:16:18Z")
MacKinnon’s views on pornography piss me off. Some pornography encourages violence against woman, but there is nothing inherently evil about visual depictions of sexuality. I agree with you that those articles are really offensive. _Hustler_ is fairly mainstream, and I’m shocked that they would promote sexual abuse of women. If it’s intended as a joke, it’s missing that key element of jokes: humor. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/9 "2003-05-05T07:13:08Z")
kung fu lola, I apologise. I had assumed Hustler’s violent misogyny was general knowledge, but after reading chula’s post I see that isn’t true. Methinks Milos Foreman has a lot to answer for. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/10 "2003-05-05T07:35:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*I’m also pretty sure that 99% of the articles are made up out of wholecloth. . \*\* Having read the magazine, I would agree. A lot of them seem to be tongue in cheek, intentionally comic. I think that some of the men that **kung fu lola** is ranting about do not actually exist. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/11 "2003-05-05T11:50:53Z")
I guess I haven’t looked at that much porn and assumed people like MacKinnon were exaggerating. Maybe I should have taken her word for it. **spooje** , it doesn’t matter all that much if these are true stories. No doubt there are _some_ men who think that way. In any case, the magazine is promoting abusive behavior towards women. Boys and men who repeatedly hear these messages will be affected by it. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/12 "2003-05-05T13:14:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > \*\* > > **spooje** , it doesn’t matter all that much if these are true stories. No doubt there are _some_ men who think that way. In any case, the magazine is promoting abusive behavior towards women. Boys and men who repeatedly hear these messages will be affected by it. \*\* Horsehocky. Men and boys who dig abusing women may seek this stuff out, but this stuff doesn’t cause them to do it. Rational men (like myself) and boys who see this (Hustler) recognize it for the crap it is. And really, who reads the articles anyway? ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/13 "2003-05-05T13:34:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > Horsehocky. Men and boys who dig abusing women may seek this stuff out, but this stuff doesn’t cause them to do it. You really don’t think that hearing misogynist messages your whole life might make those attitudes seem normal and acceptable? How do you think people learn their values? > [@](#): > > Rational men (like myself) and boys who see this (Hustler) recognize it for the crap it is. Yeah, but how many guys out there fit in this category? There are enough morons out there to cause serious problems for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/14 "2003-05-05T13:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > \*\*You really don’t think that hearing misogynist messages your whole life might make those attitudes seem normal and acceptable? How do you think people learn their values? \*\* Their parents? There have been misogynists throughout history. I don’t think we can blame porno for _all_ of them. There are even mysogonists in countries that outright ban pornography. ---
**Author:** ![nogginhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5e9695/32.png) [@nogginhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogginhead)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/15 "2003-05-05T16:46:14Z")
KFL knows and we all know that the level of misogyny in the article is small potatoes compared to many many things that happen every day and are reported about on the evening news. So, what alarmed KFL was seeing the stuff in the magazine: she’s having that classic MacKinnon recation that equates publication as promulgation. While there may be some values-changing effect of that publication, it’s hard to imagine that there are lots of 1) otherwise healthy people who will 2) buy Hustler, 3) read the articles, and 4) be changed for the worse by having read them. More likely, those folks will instantly realize that the authors and publishers are jerks and to 4) ignore those messages from the articles, 3) not read the articles, or 2) not buy the damn magazine to begin with. Or to post rants on their favorite Board reminding other people to do the same… ---
**Author:** ![Cavalier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@Cavalier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cavalier)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/16 "2003-05-05T21:57:04Z")
I don’t read this sort of magazine so I won’t guess whether these articles are real or “real” like the Weekly World News, but [RealDoll](http://www.realdoll.com/), the world’s finest love doll, do indeed exist. There’s nothing pornographic on that site, but it’s slightly disturbing. If you didn’t purchase a blimp after Scylla’s now legendary thread you can have a slightly different inflatable horror. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/17 "2003-05-06T00:26:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > You really don’t think that hearing misogynist messages your whole life might make those attitudes seem normal and acceptable? How do you think people learn their values? Absolutely, but if people are getting their primary education in gender politics and ethics out of the pages of Hustler magazine, I’m thinking the damage has already been done. ---
**Author:** ![Cavalier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@Cavalier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cavalier)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/18 "2003-05-06T00:36:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kung fu lola \* > **What the fuck is wrong with men?** What is it with women and sweeping generalisations? Rant against porno mags if you want but this kind of groundless slur against a birthgroup is just the kind of hate speech I’d expect from someone who respects MacKinnon or her work. > [@](#): > > I am all for sexual liberation. I am what could be called “pro-pornography”. I never bought the argument that porn makes men violent or conditions them to objectify women. But now I don’t know WHAT to think. I don’t even know what to do with these quotes. > … > I know I shouldn’t be surprised at finding statements like this in a porno magazine, but the level of misogyny, alienation and undercurrent of rage are so _ **extreme** _. I always wrote off the “misogyny” touted by MacKinnon et al as frat-boy naivete, and most of the inflammatory stuff in porn really comes off as innocence/ignorance. It never scared me like this does. I would never want to be buying groceries next to men who thought these things so sincerely that they would allow themselves to be quoted on them. \*\* For someone who never believed these arguments about pronography it didn’t take a lot to convince you. We all see what we want to see and you have seen what you wanted to see. As for MacKinnon, she is a hate-filled bigot, a propagandist and a proven liar, we should perhaps regard anything she writes as lies or the deranged rantings of a sociopath until proven otherwise. Come back when you’re not a mindless ideologue. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/19 "2003-05-06T00:50:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*Their parents? There have been misogynists throughout history. I don’t think we can blame porno for _all_ of them. There are even mysogonists in countries that outright ban pornography. \*\* I clearly did not blame porn for _all_ misogynists. Did you deliberately set up that straw man? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > Absolutely, but if people are getting their primary education in gender politics and ethics out of the pages of Hustler magazine, I’m thinking the damage has already been done. That’s exactly my point. In our sexually repressed society, boys do not learn about sex primarily from their parents - they learn from the media and their friends. The media is a strong force in shaping most people’s ideas about gender. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054/20 "2003-05-06T01:24:20Z")
**Cavalier** , you really jumped the gun. I _hate_ MacKinnon, and I agree with your assessment of her “views” (I put it in quotes because I think she’s divorced from reality). I clearly stated in my post that I am pro-porn. I also implied that I hadn’t had my opinion swayed, I just didn’t know WHAT to think. Reading something like that, which (ostensibly) came from someone I might encounter in daily life, shocked me, because I had never read something that blatantly dark in a porn magazine before. Of course I see lots of black humour in _Hustler_’s pages, but most of the time it is not in article form, or so over-the-top that it can’t be anything _but_ tongue-in-cheek. From what smarter (and more well-read 😉 ) Dopers than I have said, I was probably whooshed, and as I promised in my OP (which you obviously did not read very carefully, **Cavalier** ), I feel relieved. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-i-see-what-mackinnon-was-on-about/173054.md?page=2)