# Now Iraqis can't even go NEAR Americans **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809 "2005-10-25T13:58:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/1 "2005-10-25T13:58:06Z")
[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,7374-1841443,00.html](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1841443,00.html) > [@](#): > > IT USED to be easy to meet American soldiers in Baghdad. You would drive up to them as they did a patrol in the street or manned a checkpoint or even shopped for cheap televisions, and strike up a conversation. > Try doing that now and you can order your body bag in advance. **Every humvee has a sign fixed to its back warning that any attempts to approach closer than 100 yards will mean the gunner on the roof will open fire.** Civilian cars scatter before US patrols like jittery deer before a wolf. I understand the logic, here, but how exactly is this going to endear American forces to the Iraqis? It’s one thing being asked to like another country’s “peacekeeping” forces, but now they can’t even go near them? Correct me if i’m wrong, but 100 yards is pretty much an entire street on the sides of the vehicle. Who wants to bet, as well, that the signs will be in english? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/2 "2005-10-25T14:45:45Z")
English and Arabic. (I need one for the back of my vehicle here, but I digress.) I have a photo around here someplace. One of those things, I am afraid. Iraqis have been killed right left and center for coming too close. (Michael Yon’s site recounts at least one experience.) Still, given the car-bomb threat it needs to be done. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/3 "2005-10-25T15:02:41Z")
I think the problem here, Paul, is not just whether or not this is allegedly “necessary,” but what it means about the occupation and war in general that U.S. troops are now in a position where they have to shoot anyone who gets within a hundred freakin’ yards. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/4 "2005-10-25T15:13:44Z")
American rules of engagement allow troops to shoot to kill at 100m, in broad daylight, without warning shots, at people in civilian garb with no visible weapons who are not presenting a clear danger to the force? That’s… mind-boggling. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/5 "2005-10-25T15:19:26Z")
Necessary to stop American deaths? Yes. There’s still going to be some, and it’s only a matter of time before the people who want them dead think up new ways to attack, but I think this will, most likely, mean less USA soldier deaths. On the other hand, this is going to mean many, many more Iraqi deaths. How many people are going to go near the vehicles before news about the sign and this new policy gets around? I’m glad to know I was wrong about the only english signs, though; I apologise for thinking the US Army command and troops are thick. It’s just the US government that’s got it’s head up it’s collective ass. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/6 "2005-10-25T15:20:06Z")
Yep. I find it mind-boggling some TSA person can go through my underwear whenever I fly. The terrorists have changed everything. The world is not as nice a place any more. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/7 "2005-10-25T15:23:57Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Yep. I find it mind-boggling some TSA person can go through my underwear whenever I fly. The terrorists have changed everything. The world is not as nice a place any more. Particularly if you’re an Iraqi going about your lawful business in your own country it seems. I’m sure this policy will have the hearts and minds battle locked down in no time. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/8 "2005-10-25T15:28:15Z")
(Are the signs even visible and readable from 100 yards away?) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/9 "2005-10-25T15:31:41Z")
What tagos said. Seriously, we hear all the time about how the Iraqis love the coalition troops, cheer them as they go by etc etc. This policy just looks to me as if we’re going to lose any support we did have among the population. Plus this is going to affect everyone else, too; you think insurgents are really going to care that it’s only American troops that have this policy? But hey, look on the bright side; We’ve got rid of Saddam! No longer will average, law abiding iraqis have to fear being shot in the street at the whims of a controlling power!..Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/10 "2005-10-25T15:34:04Z")
> [@Whynot](#): > > (Are the signs even visible and readable from 100 yards away?) Is anyone else picturing someone seeing there’s a sign, not being able to read it, and wandering closer for a better look… ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/11 "2005-10-25T16:05:40Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Yep. I find it mind-boggling some TSA person can go through my underwear whenever I fly. The terrorists have changed everything. The world is not as nice a place any more. No, the “terrorists” have just made a whole lot of people a lot more paranoid. The level of danger to the vast majority of people was the exact same on Sept. 10, 2001 as it was on Sept. 12, 2001. We’re just more aware of it, because the government and media are now bombarding us with “Oh my god we’re all going to die!!111one” messages. Our cosmic-scale idiocy in Afghanistan and Iraq, especially Iraq, has perhaps increased the danger, in that a lot more people really do hate us now, and rightfully so. Isn’t there something in the Geneva convention about, you know, shooting civilians? Aren’t we at least _discouraged_ from doing so? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/12 "2005-10-25T16:19:20Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > What tagos said. Seriously, we hear all the time about how the Iraqis love the coalition troops, cheer them as they go by etc etc. This policy just looks to me as if we’re going to lose any support we did have among the population. Plus this is going to affect everyone else, too; you think insurgents are really going to care that it’s only American troops that have this policy? > > But hey, look on the bright side; We’ve got rid of Saddam! No longer will average, law abiding iraqis have to fear being shot in the street at the whims of a controlling power!..Oh, wait… [Poll reflects reality in Iraq](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/245746_iraq25.html) It seems that shooting the natives just isn’t making them love us after all. Why do they hate their freedoms? 😉 > [@](#): > > It is impossible to gauge with any accuracy the popular mood in a nation as fractured and traumatized as Iraq. Nevertheless, the poll by an Iraqi university research team for the Ministry of Defense this summer is likely to bear some resemblance to the reality of the situation. > > The confidential survey, leaked to the British media last weekend, suggests that fewer than 1 percent of Iraqis think the U.S. and U.K. military involvement in their country is helping to improve security. Sixty-seven percent feel less secure precisely because of the occupation. And – most worrying of all – around 65 percent of Iraqis approve of attacks on occupation forces. > > If this poll is accurate, the message for the United States and the United Kingdom is stark: The troop occupation is doing more harm than good. For most Iraqis, it seems, the withdrawal of troops cannot begin too soon. [Iraqi’s back attacks on troops](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4369350.stm) > [@](#): > > Millions of Iraqis believe attacks against US and UK troops are justified, the leaked results of a poll conducted for the coalition suggest. > > The poll shows 45% of Iraqis believe the attacks are justified. And the figure rises to 65% in Maysan, one of the areas where UK forces operate > [@](#): > > The survey suggests: > 82% of Iraqis are “strongly opposed” to the presence of coalition troops > > Less than 1% of the Iraqi population believes coalition troops are responsible for any improvement in the country > > 67% of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation > > 43% of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened > > 72% do not have confidence in the multi-national forces. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/13 "2005-10-25T16:22:41Z")
How is this policy not a warcrime? Since when can a country simply arrogate the right to kill unarmed civilians for driving around in their own country? Especially when those civilians are ostensibly our _allies_ during _peacetime_. This is sickening. We used to be the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/14 "2005-10-25T16:59:59Z")
All the good guys got killed by suicide car bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/15 "2005-10-25T17:03:51Z")
[Fourth Geneva Convention](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/geneva1.html) > [@"Art.3](#): > > (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. > > To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: > > (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; > [@](#): > > Art. 4. Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals. > > Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and **nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are.** [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cobelligerent.](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cobelligerent) > [@](#): > > Cobelligerent - One, such as a nation, that assists another or others in waging war, usually without entering a formal alliance. Now, as Diogenes noted, the Iraqis are allies of the USA. They are in a formal alliance. The Iraqi Army, and police, aid the USA troops in waging the “war against terror”. Thus, they are cobelligerent. Which, worringly, seems to mean that Iraqi citizens are **not “protected persons” under the Geneva Convention** (Damn, I REALLY hope i’ve understood that wrongly). > [@](#): > > Art. 20. Persons regularly and solely engaged in the operation and administration of civilian hospitals, including the personnel engaged in the search for, removal and transporting of and caring for wounded and sick civilians, the infirm and maternity cases shall be respected and protected. > > In occupied territory and in zones of military operations, the above personnel shall be recognizable by means of an identity card certifying their status, bearing the photograph of the holder and embossed with the stamp of the responsible authority, and also by means of a stamped, water-resistant armlet which they shall wear on the left arm while carrying out their duties. This armlet shall be issued by the State and shall bear the emblem provided for in Article 38 of the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field of 12 August 1949. Thus at the very least it’s against the convention to shoot any of these people, even if they are proctected. And I don’t think you can see identity cards from 100 yards away. > [@](#): > > Art. 27. Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity. > [@](#): > > However, the Parties to the conflict may take such measures of control and security in regard to protected persons as may be necessary as a result of the war. I think this part is the justification. > [@](#): > > Art. 29. The Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred. If this does count as war crimes, it’s against the USA government, not against the soldiers. > [@](#): > > Art. 32. The High Contracting Parties specifically agree that each of them is **prohibited from taking any measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands.** This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents. > [@](#): > > Art. 33. No protected person may be punished for \*\*an offence he or she has not personally committed. \*\* Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/16 "2005-10-25T17:27:51Z")
Well, I guess if you’re an Iraqi who wants to greet your Liberator with flowers, you better have a good arm. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/17 "2005-10-25T17:45:13Z")
The whole mission was a bust as soon as they reopened Saddam’s largest, most feared prison and began torturing people in it. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/18 "2005-10-25T17:46:37Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Now, as Diogenes noted, the Iraqis are allies of the USA. > [@](#): > > Millions of Iraqis believe attacks against US and UK troops are justified, the leaked results of a poll conducted for the coalition suggest. Well, with allies like that, it would seem to be wise to consider who you dance with at the next Semi-Anual Alliance Electric Boogaloo. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/19 "2005-10-25T17:48:01Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > The whole mission was a bust as soon as they reopened Saddam’s largest, most feared prison and began torturing people in it. Not just torturing–[murdering](http://theage.com.au/news/world/us-detainees-murdered-during-interrogations/2005/10/25/1130006101143.html). [Some highlights](http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=19298&c=36). ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809/20 "2005-10-25T17:51:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, with allies like that, it would seem to be wise to consider who you dance with at the next Semi-Anual Alliance Electric Boogaloo. Allies _legally_. Clearly not so much in _fact_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-iraqis-cant-even-go-near-americans/327809.md?page=2)