# Now it's creationism in Michigan... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2001, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021 "2001-03-14T23:15:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/1 "2001-03-14T23:15:49Z")
Excerpt from [House Bill 4382](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/7755/HB4382.html): > [@](#): > > (10) As soon as practicable after the effective date of this subsection, the State Board shall revise the recommended Model Core Academic Curriculum Content Standards under subsection (2) as follows: > > (A) In the science standards, all references to “evolution” and “how species change through time” shall be modified to indicate that this is an unproven theory by adding the phrase “all students will explain the competing theories of evolution and natural selection based on random mutation and the theory that life is the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a creator.”. > > (b) In the science standards for middle and high school, all references to “evolution” and “natural selection” shall be modified to indicate that these are unproven theories by adding the phrase “describe how life may be the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a creator.”. > > © In the science standards for middle and high school, all references to “evolution” and “natural selection” shall be modified to indicate that these are unproven theories by adding the phrase “explain the competing theories of evolution and natural selection based on random mutation and the theory that life is the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a creator.”. Sigh. See [Michigan Creationism Bill](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/7755/YECpoliticsMichigan.html). ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/2 "2001-03-14T23:30:21Z")
thanks for the link. Hadn’t seen that one slip past - odd, since I’m in Lansing. Sent it on to various folks here, sent e-mails to a co sponsor and my so-called House Rep (who’s probably in favor of it). ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/3 "2001-03-15T00:06:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Toto’s not in Kansas anymore hee hee hee … I love it. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/4 "2001-03-15T00:45:16Z")
JonF quoted Michigan House Bill 4382: > [@](#): > > “all students will explain the competing theories of evolution and natural selection based on random mutation and the theory that life is the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a creator.”. [underlining mine] And here I thought a “theory” had to have predictive power and at least a little bit of objective evidence backing it up. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/5 "2001-03-15T12:44:46Z")
Thanks, Jon. Yeesh. Have you seen any news items on this? Or have any idea how likely it is to pass? Ugh. These idiots just don’t give up. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/6 "2001-03-15T12:45:54Z")
Two things. First, I meant to ask if you’ve seen _other_ articles on it. Second, when I went to check that one, the link is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/7 "2001-03-15T13:38:49Z")
Excerpt: State Representative Robert M. Gosselin > [@](#): > > The public schools have gone to far in not allowing an equal playing field of ardumentation. The school has basically pushed the theory of a superior being out the door because they say that’s religion. Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, California > [@](#): > > It’s creationism lite. It’s trying to bash evolution without being specific about what did happen. My take on it is the same as many others. This guy wants to push **his** beliefs on **my** children whether ot not I want him to. I’ve been sending email to everyone I know here in Michigan asking them to bug the hell out of their Congressperson/Senator to **NOT** pass this idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/8 "2001-03-15T14:52:06Z")
Just got an e-mail from my State House Rep. in it, he says that he’ll ‘take my concerns into consideration’ which is odd because his characterization of the legislation is > [@](#): > > legislation that would allowing for the theory of intellegent design to be taught along with the theory of evolution. I appreciate you sharing your concerns on this issue. arghhhhhhhhhhh! From my response, “I would again suggest to you that until you understand scientific methods, you refrain from legislating your religious opinion into the school curriculum.” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/9 "2001-03-15T16:01:19Z")
I live here in the South, and I am used tothe assumtion by most people that the South is a hotbed of protastant fundalmentalism. But I am beginning to suspect that the Midwest is at least as bad as we are. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/10 "2001-03-15T16:25:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Manda JO \* > \*\*I live here in the South, and I am used tothe assumtion by most people that the South is a hotbed of protastant fundalmentalism. But I am beginning to suspect that the Midwest is at least as bad as we are. \*\* It’s exactly as bad. Before I left Detroit in the early 80’s they still had blue laws. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/11 "2001-03-15T16:44:40Z")
Xploder quoted Michigan State Representative Robert M. Gosselin: > [@](#): > > The school has basically pushed the theory of a superior being out the door because they say that’s religion. Oh, yeah, there’s nothing at _all_ religious about the notion of a superior being. :rolleyes: The thing is, these legislators _must_ know that if this bill ever gets passed, the Federal courts will strike it down as Unconstitutional faster than you can say [Edwards v. Aguillard](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/482/578.html). If I had to guess at their motivation here, I’d say these legislators were trying to _look_ like they were pro-Creationism in order to attract votes from the Biblical Literalists in their constituencies, rather than actually trying to change the Michigan school system. And, of course, plenty of legislators will be afraid to vote “no” on this bill out of fear of being labelled “anti-God”. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/12 "2001-03-15T16:45:09Z")
[sub] **sadly disappointed that no ones’ noticed that my State Rep misspelled the word “intelligent”.** [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/13 "2001-03-15T17:52:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > **Have you seen any news items on this?** [Lawmaker wants to see schools teach beyond theory of evolution](http://www.detroitfreepress.com/news/statewire/sw29931_20010312.htm) [Legislation challenges evolution](http://detnews.com/2001/schools/0103/14/c07d-199368.htm) [Bill would OK teaching several theories on the beginning of life](http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf?/news/stories/20010312levolution.frm) [State lawmaker has no place monkeying with school science](http://aa.mlive.com/columns/index.ssf?/news/stories/20010314aedit314.frm) > [@](#): > > **… the link is dead.** [Michigan Creationism Bill](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/7755/CreatPoliticsMichigan.html). Or [Greene’s Creationism Truth Filter](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/7755/index.html) and look for the link to the Michigan page about 1/3 of teh way down. ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/14 "2001-03-15T17:55:49Z")
> [@](#): > > sadly disappointed that no ones’ noticed that my State Rep misspelled the word “intelligent”. I noticed … but it’s too late now, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![slortar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@slortar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slortar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/15 "2001-03-15T18:39:32Z")
Michigan is a scary place. 'Fraid so. I live in Kalamazoo. We have a disturbingly high number of churches up here. I mean, there’s only one PBS station, but at least 3 or 4 christian channels. A few months ago, I recall a big protest in Grand Rapids about a lingerie store which had pictures of models up in the windows. I mean, it wasn’t even particularly racy stuff. Swimsuits, and there were soccer moms out in droves. Weird. You can’t throw a rock in heavy traffic without hitting a car with one of those stupid fish things on their bumpers (or a car with a WWJD bumper sticker). ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/16 "2001-03-15T19:05:06Z")
> [@](#): > > …In the science standards, all references to “evolution” and “how species change through time” shall be modified to indicate that this is an _unproven theory_… (Italics were added.) The phrase “unproven theory” is redundant. By definition, **no** theory worthy of the name can be proven. A theory can only be proven if it is tested under all possible conditions, over all time. Any theory, such as atomic theory (matter is made up of atoms), or the theory of relativity, is unproven. However, a theory’s value comes with its ability to explain the observed evidence, and to make predictions. Even if it does this admirably, the theory is still not (and never will be) **proven**. (It drives me crazy to hear creationists decry evolution because it is not “proven.” Repeat after me: “NO THEORY WILL EVER BE PROVEN!”) This [site](http://sci.esa.int/content/doc/74/24692_.htm) makes the same point, in the context of the Big Bang theory: > [@](#): > > Nothing can be proven true in science -that is one of its central tenets. All one can hope to do is construct a model that fits with observations, and disprove other models that may be proposed. In this context, the Big Bang model is nowadays the most accepted theory to describe the origin and evolution of the Universe. This is because some of its predictions have been confirmed by measurement or observation, and because no one has been able to come up with an alternative scenario that fits observations in a manner convincing to most scientists. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/17 "2001-03-15T19:45:53Z")
slortar wrote: > [@](#): > > A few months ago, I recall a big protest in Grand Rapids about a lingerie store which had pictures of models up in the windows. I mean, it wasn’t even particularly racy stuff. Swimsuits, and there were soccer moms out in droves. Weird. Hmmm … Just _moms_ showing up in droves. Not _dads_. I wonder if its because these women feel _threatened_ by the sight of all those gorgeous “other women” in the pictures… ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/18 "2001-03-15T20:03:20Z")
On August 14th, 1999, on page C01, the Washington Post carried an item that got wide circulation here in Kansas. It was titled “AND GOD SAID, LET THERE BE LIGHT IN KANSAS” It was a hilarious “memo” from God, to the members of our State Board of Education, on their decision to eliminate the teaching of evolution as science. All it would take to apply this humor to Michigan would be to change the name of the state. If I amy be permitted to quote God in the article: “You guys were supposed to figure it all out for yourselves anyway. When you stumble on the truth, you are not supposed to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and proceed as though nothing had happened. If you find a dinosaurs toenail, you’re not supposed to look for reasons to call it a croissant. You’re not big, drooling idiots. For that I made dogs.” and “The folks who wrote the Bible were smart and good people. Mostly they got it right. But there were glitches. Imprecisions. For one thing, they said that Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel, and then Cain begat Enoch. How was that supposed to have happened? They left Tiffany out entirely!” I recommend that the Michigan legislators read the whole thing before getting the same thing written about them. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/19 "2001-03-15T20:31:50Z")
I don’t think the bill(I emphasise the word “think”) is trying to remove evolutionism from high schools, but rather trying to point out that it is taught as fact. I think a lot of this comes because the schools receive state and federal funding and consequently, many people believe that they should not promote a theory as a resolved fact. I’ve always thought this would be a good idea. One, let teachers teach evolutionism all they want, even put extreme emphasis on the fact that nearly all scientists believe in it. Teach it as the main working theory of all biology, since it is. Two, teach in a much shorter version other theories that have been proposed, including creationism but not only focusing on it. There are other versions of evolutionism and other theories entirely that have been proposed regarding the origin of species. I don’t think the teacher has to promote these views, since he/she probably doesn’t believe in them, but at least let them get out there so students can decide for themselves. Of course, this bill isn’t trying to do that so you have a right to be mad. By the way, tell me where I’m wrong in my idea. I am an honest seeker of truth. ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/20 "2001-03-15T21:23:59Z")
> [@](#): > > … teach in a much shorter version other theories that have been proposed, **including creationism but not only focusing on it** (emphasis added - JRF) … tell me where I’m wrong in my idea. I think you are only in error in the portion I emphasized above. Based on my fairly extensive reading and experience, “other theories that have been proposed” fall in three categories: 1. Theories that have been totally disproven and therefore should not be taught in the public schools except perhaps as illustrations of how science discards erroneous theories and corrects itself. 2. Non-scientific religous dogma, mostly “The God of the Bible did it and that’s that”, but there are a few Muslim and Krishna and Native American versions. The Supreme Court has ruled that teaching such theories as science violates the Establishment clause of the U.S. Constitution, and therefore these should not be taught as science in the public schools (both because they’re not science and because teaching them as such is unconstitutional). 3. Being kind, incompletely formed speculations (e.g. Behe’s Irreducible Complexity and Dembski’s Explanatory Filter) that may eventually fall into category 2 or _just possibly might_ eventually become real scientific theories. Most non-creationists believe these already are in category 2. Be that as it may, these should not be taught in public schools at the high school level or below, because they are not yet scientific theories and they’re too speculative to introduce to non-experts; they would just muddy the waters. We don’t teach advanced string theory (and the speculations based on string theory) in high school because the kids just aren’t ready for it at that point. Similarly for the “category 3” stuff. When someone comes up with a scientific theory as an alternative to evolution, I’ll be all for teaching it in the public schools. I’m waiting. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021.md?page=2)