# Now it's creationism in Michigan... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2001, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021 "2001-03-14T23:15:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Borodog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@Borodog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borodog)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/21 "2001-03-15T21:29:32Z")
Fine. Teach creationism in science class as an alternate “theory” to evolution. Go ahead. Unfortunately, then you’ll have to teach children why it is **useless** in the case of Old Earth Creationism, which has ZERO predictive power and is not falsifiable, and **wrong** in the case of Young Earth Creationism, which makes specific predictions that can be and have been proven wrong (e.g. the Flood). Is that what you want? Because I don’t mind that AT ALL. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/22 "2001-03-15T21:38:07Z")
I spent 5 years going to school in Grand Rapids, at Calvin College. Calvin was founded by (you guessed it) Calvinists belonging to the Christian Reformed Church, which is one of the dominate denominations in West Michigan. The interesting thing is that my geology and biology professors had no problems with evolution. Most of them saw it as their mission to show that it is possible to be a Christian and accept evolution. It’s the lay people, especially those over 40 or so, who cause all the ruckus. ---
**Author:** ![Dagger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@Dagger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dagger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/23 "2001-03-15T23:59:01Z")
I’ve always wondered, why the U.S. is such a hotbed of creationism. In Europe, there dosen´t seem to be the same cotton industry against evolution as the case is on the other side of the pond. Especially not in Scandinavia, who is largely Protestant yet creationism there is seen as a joke. And yet the U.S is currently the world leader in the biological sciences (does most of the research, has top facilities etc.) and a huge number of people in the U.S. want to outlaw “evil-ution”. Seems you have the extremes of everything, both good and bad. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/24 "2001-03-16T02:38:51Z")
wring said: > [@](#): > > From my response, “I would again suggest to you that until you understand scientific methods, you refrain from legislating your religious opinion into the school curriculum.” So I take it you won’t be sending him any campaign contributions? 🙂 I suspect you’ll either get no response or another generic one. Not that I’m really going out on a limb with that prediction… === Jon: Thanks for the links. I’ll add 'em to the [Skeptic News](http://www.skepticnews.com/article.pl?sid=01/03/15/134240) item. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/25 "2001-03-16T02:55:37Z")
Mahaloth wrote: > [@](#): > > One, let teachers teach evolutionism all they want, even put extreme emphasis on the fact that nearly all scientists believe in it. “evolutionism”?! “believe” in it?! These terms are descriptive of religious convictions, not sciences. Scientists generally don’t “believe” in various theories so much as note how strong the _evidence_ is for them. Do you believe in gravity? ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/26 "2001-03-16T05:15:17Z")
Have you discussed this group: [http://www.aibs.org/outreach/evlist.html](http://www.aibs.org/outreach/evlist.html) It was as if the academics thought discussing creationism was a waste of time and could be ignored. Now this group and others(?) have decided it is serious and time to get involved. Jois ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/27 "2001-03-16T05:31:48Z")
I like the way they pretend to portray evolution and creationism as equivalent theories: > [@](#): > > In the science standards, all references to “evolution” and “how species change through time” shall be modified to indicate that this is **an unproven theory** by adding the phrase "all students will explain the competing theories of evolution and natural selection based on random mutation and **the theory** that life is the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a creator. However, their bias shows through; “provability” of theories aside, notice how the theory of evolution must be labelled “unproven”, yet the “theory” of creation requires no such qualifier. “Believe those who seek the truth; doubt those who find it” —Andre Gide ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/28 "2001-03-16T06:16:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*[sub] **sadly disappointed that no ones’ noticed that my State Rep misspelled the word “intelligent”.** [/sub] > > \*\* Actually, my wife suggested that you send his letter to “Harper’s.” It would be right up their alley! -Ben ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/29 "2001-03-16T13:56:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*So I take it you won’t be sending him any campaign contributions? 🙂 > \*\* that’s an understatement. This guy is a former **State Police officer** who, about 10 years ago hosted a drinking party for his underage son/son’s friends to commiserate their other friends death from drunken driving. They dropped the charge from a felony so he wouldn’t loose his job. :rolleyes: I live in an extremely Republican district. **Ben** would be happy to send it on, if I knew where to send??? ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/30 "2001-03-16T15:10:17Z")
This is far from just a “Michigan thing.” Pennsylvania is considering a similar move. Oklahoma’s already done it. And you already know about Kansas. I’m sure there are other states I’m unaware of. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/31 "2001-03-16T15:26:42Z")
Now, now **Milo** don’t get your dander up. Save the rightous indignation for your State Rep. You **are** going to contact them, aren’t you??? ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/32 "2001-03-16T18:32:30Z")
I just sent an e-mail to the state rep from my home town, asking him why he co-sponsored this bill. If he answers, I’ll post his response here. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/33 "2001-03-16T22:25:07Z")
Now, now, wring. I wasn’t righteously indignant, and didn’t express righteous indignation. I merely pointed out that this is a nationwide trend, occurring in at least a few states, not just Michigan. Which points to the irrelevance of statements such as there being too many churches in Kalamazoo, or women in Grand Rapids upset over scantily clad mannequins, or whatever. As for contacting my state representative, I can save my energy. My Rep is one of the louder Democrats in the House, Andy Neumann (I don’t hold it against him too much, though. 😉 He’s a good guy. I’m on a first-name basis with him, through my work.) If a Republican proposed it, not only will Neumann be voting against it, he will be doing so loudly. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/34 "2001-03-16T22:28:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > \*\*This is far from just a “Michigan thing.” Pennsylvania is considering a similar move. Oklahoma’s already done it. And you already know about Kansas. I’m sure there are other states I’m unaware of. \*\* Hey, wait just a damn minute there. We did **NOT** “already done it” in Oklahoma. We only _thought_ about doing it. Fortunately, wiser heads prevailed and the idiotic notion was dumped. And it wasn’t the state legislature (amazingly enough!), it was the state education committee (or some such; don’t recall the exact title at the moment). We’uns ain’t all that bad down here, y’all. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/35 "2001-03-16T22:37:28Z")
**Milo** gets the “loud democrat good guy” and I get the guy who misspells the word “intelligent”. arghhhhhhhhhh well, as long as your rep will yell and scream. Unfortunately, mine will undoubtably vote for it. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/36 "2001-03-17T02:57:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think the bill(I emphasise the word “think”) is trying to remove evolutionism from high schools, but rather trying to point out that it is taught as fact. [Evolution _is_ a fact.](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html) Evolution is [also a theory.](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html) I don’t really expect state legislators to be able to grasp that sort of subtlety, but that is the sort of thing high school science courses should really be trying to get across. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/37 "2001-03-17T03:33:37Z")
2nd Law said: > [@](#): > > I just sent an e-mail to the state rep from my home town, asking him why he co-sponsored this bill. If he answers, I’ll post his response here. Just a suggestion: Send a letter, too; or, better yet, call. Elected folks don’t pay too much attention to e-mails. They’re just too easy. It takes a little more time to write a letter, sign it, put it in an envelope, seal it, stamp it, and drop it in a mailbox. And even more to call. They take these things into account. Now, given that he co-sponsored the bill, I doubt you’ll get very far. But if enough outraged people send him letters or jam his switchboard, it’s more likely to get through to him than just a bunch of (in his “mind”) spam e-mail. ---
**Author:** ![Wartime\_Consigliori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9d8465/32.png) [@Wartime\_Consigliori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wartime_Consigliori)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/38 "2001-03-17T04:25:08Z")
Folks, we can all expect this debate to be revisited after every election cycle. Nobody really expects bills such as this one to go anywhere. A common pattern is passage by the lower legislative body (typically the “House”), followed by a quiet death in committee or by procedure when the bill reaches the Senate. Crazy bills filed by Senators usually attract some attention, but are strategically buried in procedural detail and quickly forgotten. Redtail23 said: Fortunately, wiser heads prevailed and the idiotic notion was dumped. While this statement is true to an extent, one could replace the words “wiser heads” with “politics”. This is an example of how politicians protect each other. Example: Politician A from a conservative-protestant district can score big points with the constituents by taking on the “Federal Government” and “working hard to bring (prayer, creation science, etc.) back to the community”. Politician A knows his/her legislation either has no idea of becoming law, or is unconstitutional. It doesn’t matter. Politician A knows the bill will die, the folks back home will feel that their “hometown values” are being addressed, and everyone goes home happy. The wild card situation is similar to what happened in Kansas. Elected and/or appointed bodies without bicameral checks and balances, or, at least, threat of executive veto can do some really serious damage to the Republic, in my estimation. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/39 "2001-03-17T04:28:55Z")
Do you live in Michigan??? Are you aware of the configuration and make up of this state’s legislature? This bill has a good chance of succeeding, IMHO (having lived in the Lansing area for the past 20 or so years…) ---
**Author:** ![Wartime\_Consigliori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9d8465/32.png) [@Wartime\_Consigliori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wartime_Consigliori)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021/40 "2001-03-17T05:27:10Z")
Wring, I assume that you were talking to me. I live in South Carolina. I did not intend to make light of your concern for the situation. I think that every prudent person understands that no person’s life, liberty or property are safe whenever the legislature is in session (stated by someone else, I cannot remember the source). Yes, the only thing I know about Michigan politics is that your Governor is not named Fieger. I also know that you have a bicameral state legislature. I stand by my original position: the Michigan House of Representatives may well give strong debate to this bill. A lot of noise will be made by the thumping of chests and the bleating of sheep. This bill as written will not become the law of the land in Michigan. Michigan is a heavy electoral state which may produce a presidential candidate one day. Nobody (of political significance) there wants to be weighed down by the nut vote. I would be shocked if even a watered-down version of this bill reached the desk of your Governor. Even then, the bureaucracy would whittle it into dust. We will see what develops. I will offer appropriate mea culpas (and my Frogmore Stew Receipt) should things go differently. Wring, please keep me updated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-its-creationism-in-michigan/58021.md?page=3)