# Now public health and safety is being debated about, just as if its a political belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 4, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830 "2015-02-04T19:18:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WPA-Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WPA-Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WPA-Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/1 "2015-02-04T19:18:04Z")
Maybe because I read too many blogs that highlight people spouting stupid assertions, but has there been an upturn of people making downright stupid statements and presenting as fact? Sen. Thom Tillis described his own history of opposing certain health and hygiene regulations, including those that require employees to wash their hands after using the bathroom. (Why would you even have such a history?) Sen. Rand Paul is standing by his statement that most vaccinations should be “voluntary,” telling CNBC that a parent’s choice not to vaccinate a child is “an issue of freedom.” Paul, who is an ophthalmologist, also asserts that he’s heard of cases where vaccines have caused “profound mental disorders.” Gov. Chris Christie said that parents should have “a measure of choice” in whether children are vaccinated. I can’t form a proper rant since my mind is blown. And now I have to worry than my health safety is really just a belief? Has there been an upturn in being stupid? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/2 "2015-02-04T19:20:33Z")
Public health and safety regulations have _always_ been a matter of political debate. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/3 "2015-02-04T19:22:49Z")
> [@WPA-Guy](#): > > Sen. Rand Paul is standing by his statement that most vaccinations should be “voluntary,” telling CNBC that a parent’s choice not to vaccinate a child is “an issue of freedom.” Are they voluntary now? Yes? Have they ever been non-voluntary? > [@](#): > > Paul, who is an ophthalmologist, also asserts that he’s heard of cases where vaccines have caused “profound mental disorders.” False. He’s never said that vaccines have caused those disorders. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/4 "2015-02-04T19:23:10Z")
There was once a Japanese doctor who argued that parents, by their obsessive focus on cleanliness, were actually weakening childrens’ immune systems. It’s counterintuitive - how could a child who plays with dirt possibly be healthier than a child kept fastidiously clean? - but I think there’s truth to it. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/5 "2015-02-04T19:24:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There was once a Japanese doctor who argued that parents, by their obsessive focus on cleanliness, were actually weakening childrens’ immune systems. > > It’s counterintuitive - how could a child who plays with dirt possibly be healthier than a child kept fastidiously clean? - but I think there’s truth to it. Well, that’s kind of what a vaccine is - expose the immune system to something that makes it stronger. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/6 "2015-02-04T19:26:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > False. He’s never said that vaccines have caused those disorders. :dubious: His exact words were “I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.” But I’m sure he meant they were totally unrelated. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/7 "2015-02-04T19:31:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There was once a Japanese doctor who argued that parents, by their obsessive focus on cleanliness, were actually weakening childrens’ immune systems. > > It’s counterintuitive - how could a child who plays with dirt possibly be healthier than a child kept fastidiously clean? - but I think there’s truth to it. Some kids probably _are_ “too clean.” Also, antibiotics are probably over-prescribed which might cause issues with drug-resistant bacteria, and I think in general that parents have unrealistic expectations of what a pediatrician can do for minor ailments. None of that has anything to do with vaccines or routine hand-washing for food service workers, though. Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, public health science has saved countless lives. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/8 "2015-02-04T19:41:26Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > :dubious: > His exact words were “I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.” > > But I’m sure he meant they were totally unrelated. Yes. “Temporally related”. Not one causing the other. As in: “I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related – I did not allege causation,” Paul said. “I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated.” Seems like that is too hard a concept to grasp for leftwingers. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/9 "2015-02-04T19:43:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. “Temporally related”. Not one causing the other. As in: > > “I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related – I did not allege causation,” Paul said. “I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated.” > > Seems like that is too hard a concept to grasp for leftwingers. You think that’s what he meant by his original quote before he was forced to backtrack? If that’s how low you have to stoop to apologize for his ignorance, I don’t know what to say to you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/10 "2015-02-04T19:44:18Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > You think that’s what he meant by his original quote before he was forced to backtrack? There was no backtracking. He said the same thing one way, then the other way. If you misunderstood, that’s your problem. ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/11 "2015-02-04T19:48:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. “Temporally related”. Not one causing the other. As in: > > “I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related – I did not allege causation,” Paul said. “I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated.” > > Seems like that is too hard a concept to grasp for leftwingers. So what’s the point of saying that, if not to connect them? You might as well say that you’ve heard of countless cases of kids suffering severe mental disorders after sleeping in a crib. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/12 "2015-02-04T19:48:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There was no backtracking. He said the same thing one way, then the other way. If you misunderstood, that’s your problem. Why would he have mentioned it at all, if not to imply a possible link? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/13 "2015-02-04T19:48:32Z")
It’s not my problem, it’s a problem for the innocent kids who are getting sick because of ignoramuses like him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/14 "2015-02-04T19:53:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There was no backtracking. He said the same thing one way, then the other way. If you misunderstood, that’s your problem. Actually, since absolutely no one is buying this bullshit you and he are spewing, it’s _your_ problem. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/15 "2015-02-04T19:53:23Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > :dubious: > His exact words were “I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who **wound up with** profound mental disorders after vaccines.” > > But I’m sure he meant they were totally unrelated. > [@Terr](#): > > Yes. “Temporally related”. Not one causing the other. As in: > > “I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related – I did not **allege** causation,” Paul said. “I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated.” > > Seems like that is too hard a concept to grasp for leftwingers. That is such bullshit. _“Wound up with”_ definitely _implies_ causation, denials of _alleging_ anything notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/16 "2015-02-04T20:12:41Z")
There always are going to be beliefs about how to implement policy based on what science shows. Science shows what is. How to deal with the negatives of what is usually involves tradeoffs between different factors. People with different values will weight the tradeoffs differently. Coming up with a way for the society to make those decisions and implement them is … politics. Science can provide good insight in to what happens when a car stop violently in a collision with an unrestrained passenger. It can show likely effects on the human body of bouncing around inside the car at those speeds. Values and beliefs come in when socially we try to address those negatives. Should we have seat belt laws? Primary or secondary enforcement? Should not wearing it be a crime or just a civil infraction subject to fine? How stiff should the punishments be? Do we need more police if they are spending time enforcing this new law instead of others? Science doesn’t take belief/values/politics out of the game. It never will. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/17 "2015-02-04T20:16:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > _“Wound up with”_ definitely _implies_ causation Only if you _really really_ want it to imply causation. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/18 "2015-02-04T20:18:29Z")
I know a lot of people who’ve tried to get a straight answer out of **Terr** , and wound up with a big bucket of monkey shit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/19 "2015-02-04T20:18:33Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > :dubious: > His exact words were “I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.” > > But I’m sure he meant they were totally unrelated. It stretches credulity to say that causation is not implied in that quote. Maybe he misspoke, or maybe he was just politicking, but it’s not the listener’s job to parse the speaker’s words in the most innocent way possible. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830/20 "2015-02-04T20:22:23Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > Science doesn’t take belief/values/politics out of the game. It never will. Getting back to the actual OP, this is right (as is **Thudlow Boink** in post 2). Of course it’s going to be political, and it’s valid for it be debated. It is _not_ valid to debate settled science like if vaccines cause autism. But it’s valid to debate how the science should drive policy. And IMO, people shouldn’t be arrested or fined for not getting vaccines. But I’m fine with excluding them from public institutions like schools where their choices impact others. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-public-health-and-safety-is-being-debated-about-just-as-if-its-a-political-belief/711830.md?page=2)