# Now that Kerry likely won't win, is third party voting still a "waste"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2004, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464 "2004-09-07T09:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/41 "2004-09-07T16:15:55Z")
Thanks, Dio! šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/42 "2004-09-07T16:19:13Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Thanks, Dio! šŸ™‚ Hey! Did you read the secomd paragraph in my post or note the smiley in my first paragraph? Throw a little love in this direction, man!! šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/43 "2004-09-07T16:21:47Z")
Lord, you know I love you, John. šŸ™‚ But neither your first nor your second paragraph addressed the alleged wasting of votes for third parties. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/44 "2004-09-07T19:13:12Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > For the sake of the question, may we proceed in at least a subjunctive mode that _were_ Kerry statistically unlikely to win (just like the Greens), _would_ voting for a third party still be a ā€œwasteā€ to people who believe it is wasted if the race is close? > [@Me](#): > > If the polls on election day show Bush with an insurmountable lead in North Carolina, thatā€™s when Iā€™ll consider casting my vote for a third-party candidate. You may extrapolate from that that I believe this to be a rational strategy, in any state in which Bush is showing an insurmountable lead; it is a rational strategy because itā€™s a foregone conclusion that your vote wonā€™t affect the total under such circumstances, and so inasmuch as your vote matters, it matters because it sends a message. Third-party votes send messages just fine, and therefore arenā€™t wasted under these circumstances. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Even if Bush is going to win your state, a vote for Kerry still counts in the national totals. If Bush was to win a second term on electoral votes, it might quell his notion of a mandate if he was again to finish second in the popular vote. Therefore every vote against Bush counts, no matter what state youā€™re in. Your observations differ from mine. Iā€™ve never seen Bush act like he enjoys a mandate; I have seen him act like he doesnā€™t give a shit what anyone else thinks of his actions. Given his cavalier disregard for what folks want in his first term, I see no reason to suspect that heā€™ll soften his policies in a second term, even if he gets only ten percent of the vote. Votes can send messages, but only to folks interested in hearing them; I see no evidence that Bush is interested in what I say. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/45 "2004-09-07T19:28:12Z")
Third party votes are not wasted votes. The third party can get enough votes to earn credibility, make a statement and possibly sway the outcome of the election. The third party can also prevent one of the two other candidiates from getting a strong mandate and hopefully arouse the attention of the major parties/players. There is a _common sense_ vote and a _heart_ vote. Common sense should tell you when to vote with your heart, if you get what I mean. An unprincipled vote is the only wasted vote. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/46 "2004-09-07T20:02:23Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > Someday, hopefully within my lifetime, a third party (hopefully libertarian) will take 1/4 of the voteā€¦ Did you listen to Arnieā€™s speech? I thought it thoroughly libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/47 "2004-09-07T20:46:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Lord, you know I love you, John. šŸ™‚ But neither your first nor your second paragraph addressed the alleged wasting of votes for third parties. Damn. How about this: Donā€™t look at the national polls, just look at your state poll. Unless you live in one of the closely contested states, a vote for a 3rd party candidate might well be in order. I live in CA, and thatā€™s a real possibilty for me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/48 "2004-09-07T20:56:11Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > An unprincipled vote is the only wasted vote. How supremely arrogant. Please forward a list of your principles so that I may know if my vote is wasted or not. The only wasted vote is the one that is never cast. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/49 "2004-09-07T20:59:08Z")
[Pollingreport.com](http://Pollingreport.com) provides a summary of recent Presidential polls [here](http://www.pollingreport.com/wh2004.htm). The results of the recent samplings are all over the place. Also, since the outcome of the US Presidential election turns on the vagaries of the Electoral College, one candidate or the other can be ahead or behind by 20 points in the polls, and it wonā€™t matter, if the trailing candidate is able to win 51% of the vote in states with 270 electoral votes. [If the most recent state polls are accurate](http://electoral-vote.com/), Kerry wins the election if he can swing a handful of votes to him in PA, MN, and IA. Maybe the election will come down to the wire; maybe it will turn out to be clearly over after the last Presidential debate. If itā€™s close enough that your vote might make a difference, the gulf between the fundamental philosophies of the two parties has never been larger in my lifetime; it shouldnā€™t be too tricky to figure out which direction youā€™d like to help pull the country in. (According to the WaPo, [the business world isnā€™t bothering to hedge its bets anymore](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64582-2004Sep5.html).) But if November 2 dawns with us looking at a landslide, then send all the ā€˜messagesā€™ you want. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/50 "2004-09-07T21:15:15Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > Well it was civil for three minutes. Damn, that was funny! šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/51 "2004-09-07T21:18:07Z")
Isnā€™t it sort of the other way around? As long as the electionā€™s competative, it makes sense to support a minor party candidate, but as long as one of the two major party candidates looks certain to win, it doesnā€™t. Hereā€™s the way I see it. First, lets agree that a minor party candidate canā€™t win the presidency in this country, with the way the electoral system is now. I think thatā€™s a relatively uncontroversial statement. However, what a minor party candidate can do, if the election is close, is prevent a major party candidate from winning. Something like that probably contributed to Bushā€™s loss to Clinton in 1992, as well as Goreā€™s loss to Bush in 2000. So, in a close race, this gives the minor party candidateā€™s supporters a good deal of power to ā€œpunishā€ the major party candidate by not voting for him. If thereā€™s a landslide, though, that power disappears. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/52 "2004-09-07T21:38:08Z")
The point of this OP is not to discuss third party voting. **Libertarian** ā€™s post is meant to establish ā€œKerry cannot winā€ as conventional wisdom. Heā€™s just doing his part to perpetuate the meme like a good little soldier. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/53 "2004-09-07T21:44:21Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > The point of this OP is not to discuss third party voting. **Libertarian** ā€™s post is meant to establish ā€œKerry cannot winā€ as conventional wisdom. Heā€™s just doing his part to perpetuate the meme like a good little soldier. Yeah, the Dope would be a good place to launch an anti-Kerry meme, you dumb fuck. You can give Miss Cleo her mind-reading crystal back. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/54 "2004-09-07T21:47:49Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > The point of this OP is not to discuss third party voting. **Libertarian** ā€™s post is meant to establish ā€œKerry cannot winā€ as conventional wisdom. Heā€™s just doing his part to perpetuate the meme like a good little soldier. I suppose itā€™s possible, but if you look at **Liberalā€™s** posts on the board, heā€™s been pretty consistantly anti-Bush and seems to believe that Kerry is the lesser of two evils. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/55 "2004-09-07T21:52:31Z")
And, of course, looking, I see that **Lib** put it more succinctly than I could. (Isnā€™t Miss Cleo out of business, anyway?) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/56 "2004-09-07T21:57:43Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Yeah, the Dope would be a good place to launch an anti-Kerry meme, you dumb fuck. You can give Miss Cleo her mind-reading crystal back.[/QUOTE I had a dumb fuck once. Looking back, though, she wasnā€™t half bad. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/57 "2004-09-07T22:03:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Foray into the Democratic Party? Iā€™m afraid you misunderstood. I am voting for Kerry while holding my nose and hiding my shame. Iā€™m still going to hang here for a bit on the off-chance that someone might address the question. Dude, if your political convictions were so strong that voting for Kerry was morally repugnant to you, then you should say fuck the polls and vote for the candidate you believe in. You should do that regardless of whatever some bullshit poll says. This isnā€™t Vegas, or a horse race. Itā€™s an election. You canā€™t go in ā€œplaying the numbersā€ and then complain about how youā€™re going against your ideals. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/58 "2004-09-07T22:23:38Z")
The ideal in this case is to unseat a tyrant. It simply must be done. It is a chore akin to unclogging the toilet ā€” something you donā€™t look forward to, but something you canā€™t shirk. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/59 "2004-09-07T22:30:13Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The ideal in this case is to unseat a tyrant. It simply must be done. It is a chore akin to unclogging the toilet ā€” something you donā€™t look forward to, but something you canā€™t shirk. All we disagree on is the method to unclog this particular toilet. You seem to think the only way to do it is sitting on the toilet for untold years, sending thousands of young men & women into the pipes to die, and saddling the homeowner with a crushing debt that will take years for his children to pay off. There is a better way; hire a better plumber! ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464/60 "2004-09-07T23:35:12Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The ideal in this case is to unseat a tyrant. It simply must be done. It is a chore akin to unclogging the toilet ā€” something you donā€™t look forward to, but something you canā€™t shirk. Then thereā€™s your answer: vote for Kerry. Your third-party candidate has absolutely no chance of unseating the ā€œtyrant.ā€ (I hate Bush as much as anyone, but I think thatā€™s being more than a little melodramatic.) The Democratic Party nominee does have a chance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-kerry-likely-wont-win-is-third-party-voting-still-a-waste/263464.md?page=4)