# Now that Marion Z. Bradley's child raping has come out, does it change your desire to reread her? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973 "2014-06-30T00:25:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/341 "2014-07-05T03:10:35Z")
What it comes down to, **Fenris** , is that you are unable to engage in a calm, logical discussion and thus resort to sputtering character assassination. Almost as classy as **faithfool** dragging my mentally ill sister’s suicide into this thread which was clearly done to either upset or hurt me. When come back please bring something new to the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/342 "2014-07-05T03:21:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > What it comes down to Just. Shut. Up. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/343 "2014-07-05T06:58:19Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Oh I’m more than happy to point out what people are seeing here… > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Sure, it’s possible MZB raped her own daughter. It’s also possible she was “just” an enabler for Breen. While the accusations about Breen have been proven in a court of law this recent statement by Moira is a new accusation. Quite possibly true, yes, but as I said it hasn’t been proven to the same extent the Breen accusations were. > > > > I know little to nothing of Moira Greyland, or what sort of person she is, or how reliable she is. While I’m inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to her and believe her I wouldn’t feel comfortable repeating what she claims as a fact. An accusation, yes, but not an indisputable fact. > > > > It would be nice to have more corroboration but, sorry, I don’t assume anyone is guilty merely because they’ve been accused of a crime. I’m sorry you don’t take the notion of “innocent until proven guilty” to heart. > > Again, overwhelming evidence (though not a literal jury’s decision) says this is true, including the perpetrator’s own admission. But no, let’s give her the benefit of the doubt, her daughter might be making the whole thing up! First, you’ve misread at least this one quote in a pretty serious fashion… you’re accusing Broomstick of saying she’ll give MZB the benefit of the doubt, when in fact Broomstick is saying she’ll give Moira the benefit of the doubt. In general, I don’t really want to be an apologist for Broomstick, as she can do so just fine herself. But if you take a step back, I think that for some reason you’re reading all of Broomstick’s posts in some kind of sarcastic, sneering, way, in which you already assume the worst, and then insert some kind of mental air quotes and sneering tones and so forth to make all of her posts as snide and obnoxious as possible, but if you just read the literal words you’ll see that they’re really not saying what you think they’re saying. For instance: “I know little to nothing of Moira Greyland, or what sort of person she is, or how reliable she is. While I’m inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to her and believe her I wouldn’t feel comfortable repeating what she claims as a fact. An accusation, yes, but not an indisputable fact.” -She knows nothing about Moira Greyland -But will give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her -But would not repeat her accusations AS FACT How is that not just a completely reasonable position? In fact, isn’t that precisely the position that anyone who had heard of the accusation but not further corroboration SHOULD adopt? Honestly, the only thing Broomstick is guilty of is being mildly pedantic in a situation in which everyone else didn’t think pedantry was called for. Perhaps some conversational tone-deafness but in no way deserving of the vitriol that was inexplicably heaped upon her. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/344 "2014-07-06T03:49:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Honestly, the only thing Broomstick is guilty of is being mildly pedantic in a situation in which everyone else didn’t think pedantry was called for. You seem to be pretty heavily invested in white knighting for a pedophile apologist. I notice that your Flickr stream is loaded with pictures of you frolicking in the sand with prepubescent boys, and even giving them piggy back rides. Are those boys sexually developed enough to suit your and Broomstick’s criteria of deserving to be raped? (As opposed to infants, of course, which would just be plain wrong) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/345 "2014-07-06T04:08:32Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > You seem to be pretty heavily invested in white knighting for a pedophile apologist. I notice that your Flickr stream is loaded with pictures of you frolicking in the sand with prepubescent boys, and even giving them piggy back rides. Are those boys sexually developed enough to suit your and Broomstick’s criteria of deserving to be raped? (As opposed to infants, of course, which would just be plain wrong) WTF? I think **Broomstick** has been unnecessarily thin-skinned and defensive in this particular thread, assumed facts not in evidence and just generally argued herself into a hole in the ground by bringing up some truly irrelevant nonsense. Tone deaf is putting it a little too mildly. But **MaxTheVool** has been polite and reasonable enough in his defense of her. I see no need to sling that level of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/346 "2014-07-06T04:19:56Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > WTF? > > I think **Broomstick** has been unnecessarily thin-skinned and defensive in this particular thread, assumed facts not in evidence and just generally argued herself into a hole in the ground by bringing up some truly irrelevant nonsense. Tone deaf is putting it a little too mildly. > > But **MaxTheVool** has been polite and reasonable enough in his defense of her. I see no need to sling that level of shit. Whether done politely and reasonably or not, it is clearly a stance he is willing to put a heavy investment into defending. Seeing as how he’s doing it on a public message board and all it is also reasonable enough for me to question his motivation. If you boil down the pages of text he and Broomstick have thrown into this thread it comes down to her saying “Of course I think all rape is wrong! All I’m saying is, hey… if she’s got tits already … you know what I mean?” and him portraying her as a victim for getting a lot of criticism for it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/347 "2014-07-06T05:17:32Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Whether done politely and reasonably or not, it is clearly a stance he is willing to put a heavy investment into defending. Seeing as how he’s doing it on a public message board and all it is also reasonable enough for me to question his motivation. > > If you boil down the pages of text he and Broomstick have thrown into this thread it comes down to her saying “Of course I think all rape is wrong! All I’m saying is, hey… if she’s got tits already … you know what I mean?” and him portraying her as a victim for getting a lot of criticism for it. I’ll bet it is reasonable enough for you to question ANYONE’s motives. I’ll bet you’ve got a briefcase full of the names of people who can reasonably be accused of white-knighting someone you consider a pedophile apologist, don’t you? Have you no shame, **Crazyhorse**? Have you no shame? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/348 "2014-07-06T05:56:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Have you no shame, **Crazyhorse**? Have you no shame? Well not as much as, say, some lady who raped an infant should have. That’s for sure. But maybe more than someone who only raped a mature looking 10 year old. (not that I approve, mind you! Just saying it’s less bad. And especially if she was an early bloomer… But still, it’s wrong, wrong, wrong! But you know sometimes a woman blossoms very young. But don’t get me wrong, I’m still against it, I"m just saying…) ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/349 "2014-07-06T06:04:40Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > You seem to be pretty heavily invested in white knighting for a pedophile apologist. I notice that your Flickr stream is loaded with pictures of you frolicking in the sand with prepubescent boys, and even giving them piggy back rides. Are those boys sexually developed enough to suit your and Broomstick’s criteria of deserving to be raped? (As opposed to infants, of course, which would just be plain wrong) Well… THAT post happened. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/350 "2014-07-06T06:59:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Well… THAT post happened. Why shouldn’t it have? So did all of these. > [@Broomstick](#): > > There are people with public hair at the age of 10. … > I don’t think raping a 10 year old is any way acceptable, but it is marginally less horrific than, say, raping a three year old. [insert criticism here] Yawn… But wait, someone has a word or two to add: > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > First, you’ve misread at least this one quote in a pretty serious fashion… you’re accusing Broomstick of saying she’ll give MZB the benefit of the doubt, when in fact Broomstick is saying she’ll give Moira the benefit of the doubt. > > In general, I don’t really want to be an apologist for Broomstick, as she can do so just fine herself. But if you take a step back, I think that for some reason you’re reading all of Broomstick’s posts in some kind of sarcastic, sneering, way, in which you already assume the worst, and then insert some kind of mental air quotes and sneering tones and so forth to make all of her posts as snide and obnoxious as possible, but if you just read the literal words you’ll see that they’re really not saying what you think they’re saying. > > For instance: > “I know little to nothing of Moira Greyland, or what sort of person she is, or how reliable she is. While I’m inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to her and believe her I wouldn’t feel comfortable repeating what she claims as a fact. An accusation, yes, but not an indisputable fact.” > > -She knows nothing about Moira Greyland > -But will give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her > -But would not repeat her accusations AS FACT > > How is that not just a completely reasonable position? In fact, isn’t that precisely the position that anyone who had heard of the accusation but not further corroboration SHOULD adopt? > Honestly, the only thing Broomstick is guilty of is being mildly pedantic in a situation in which everyone else didn’t think pedantry was called for. Perhaps some conversational tone-deafness but in no way deserving of the vitriol that was inexplicably heaped upon her. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > A reasonable question, and I’d say it depends on the context… so can you point to a precise post from Broomstick that you found so objectionable? > Fair enough… but how is “odd” deserving of responses like “I feel like I need a bath every time I read one of your new posts.” and other similar responses? > My new theory is that the responses Broomstick is getting here are justified by huge numbers of crazy things she’s said in other threads that I haven’t read (many of which have been obliquely or directly referred to) because if you just read this thread alone, it’s like some kind of Orwellian grouphate. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I still don’t see it. As far as I can tell, and please, point me to a precise post that I’m missing if I’m wrong, Broomstick was saying that she thought the allegations against MZB were probably true, but that, crucially, they were not PROVEN, and it was important to remember the difference between alleged rapists and convicted rapists. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not one should randomly believe personal anecdotes that people post on the SDMB. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I feel like I’m just reading a completely different set of posts than everyone else in this thread, and it’s very odd. > > To me the so-obvious-it’s-hardly-worth-mentioning answer to your fairly facile question is that Broomstick DOES believe that Moira was raped, but the claim being made, and Broomstick thinking it more likely true than false, does not make MZB a convicted and proven rapist, which is a distinction that is important to maintain, both legally and ethically. On the other hand, in some other thread, Broomstick said some stuff about her life, and people may or may not believe it. > > What equivalence is there? > > Again, please point me towards a specific post where Broomstick is defending MZB. Did I miss one? I honestly believe that I read every post of hers in this thread. By defending do you mean claiming that MZB is likely innocent? Or claiming that what MZB did is not so bad? Or claiming that somehow MZB’s insane literary genius absolves her of all sin? I saw none of the above. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Wow. That’s quite a stretch. I mean, wow. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I just reread every post Broomstick has made in this entire thread, and no, no she is not. > > As far as I can tell, Broomstick is saying only two things specifically about MZB: > (1) Broomstick may or may choose to continue to read MZB’s works in the future, although she respects that others may make a different choice, and if she does so, that does not mean she morally approves of MZB’s actions > (2) While there is a lot of very strong evidence that MZB in fact is guilty of the crimes that she is accused of, (and in fact Broomstick now seems to find it very likely that she was in fact guilty) she was never convicted of them in a court of law (and clearly never will be, being dead), and it’s important to maintain a distinction between accusation and proof > > In addition, she’s saying > (3) When Broomstick herself was 10, she could easily pass for 16 > (4) Raping prepubescent children is different from, and worse than, raping pubescent children, but raping pubescent children is also REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY BAD. > > That’s what she’s saying, and she’s been saying those things consistently since the beginning of the thread (her position on (2) adjusted when further testimony that she was previously unaware of was linked… AS IT SHOULD) and people are just teeing off on her like crazy. It’s bizarre. > Seriously, which post of Broomstick’s, precisely, do people find so horrifying? > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I have not commented on the main part of the thread, because I don’t think there’s too much to say. MZB and her husband were both horrible criminals, and it’s terrible what they did, and I hope they metaphorically rot in hell. I have zero interest in defending them or trying to lessen their responsibility or the gravity of what they did. > > That in no way stops me from responding to precise claims that people have been making in this thread which I find to be pretty clearly incorrect… which doesn’t mean that I disagree at all with the larger consensus. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think there’s a huge distinction between this: > > Joe: Oh goodness, someone just raped a 10-year-old > Bob: Wait a second, a 10-year-old? That’s not NEARLY as bad as raping a 5-year-old > > And this > Joe: Oh goodness, someone raped a 10-year-old many years ago > … > 1000 posts of discussion of an issue > … > Bob: Actually, despite some of the claims that people are making in this thread, I don’t think that all child rape is equally bad > There are very very few “bad things” that are always equally bad. Not all rape is equally bad. Not all CHILD rape is equally bad. Not all child porn is equally bad. Not all torture is equally bad. Not all murder is equally bad. In fact, not all first degree murder is equally bad. None of that is intended to diminish any of those things. Just because (for instance) not all child porn is equally bad doesn’t mean that any of it is in any way GOOD or non-horrifying. > > I believe the reaction that many of you are having is because you assume that someone saying “not all child rape is equally bad” must be making the first step of a chain of argument that leads to “…and therefore THIS particular example of child rape is really barely more than fraternity initiation stunts, why are we getting so worked up about it?”. And I suppose that it’s possible someone would make that chain of argument. But I’m certainly not. I’m saying “not all child rape is equally bad”. Some of it is 9.999 on the horrifying and criminal scale, and some of it is 8.0 on the horrifying and criminal scale (or whatever). But it’s still all horrifying, and all criminal, and I’m perfectly happy for the laws against it to be unforgiving and severe. Precisely as they are. > (Upon rereading this post, I have decided that the phrase “Actually I don’t think that all child rape is equally bad” really does have a twisted and disturbing ring to it… it certainly SOUNDS like the beginning of something apologetic. But if you just read the literal words and meaning of it, I don’t see how you can possibly deny that it’s true.) > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I’m very hesitant to make any post that even remotely sounds like I’m condoning child rape in any way. Which I’m not. But… a lot of what Broomstick is saying is not only true, but basically completely inarguably true in a way that shouldn’t even be controversial. > > (1) There clearly IS a scale for how bad things are. > > A 19-year-old has sex with a 19-year old. Ethically fine, totally legal. > 19- and 18-. Ethically fine, totally legal. > 19- and 17-. Ethically starting to get sketchy, legality varies based on state > 19- and 16- > 19- and 15- > etc > 19- and 5-. Ethically HORRIFYING, totally and completely illegal in all jurisdictions. > > Clearly, ethically, there is no one line where you say “well, on this side of the line, it’s OK, and on the other side, it’s horrible”. And yet on one end it’s 100% OK and on the other end it’s about the worst offense to humanity that anyone can commit. So there obviously is an ethical scale, where it gets worse and worse as you go down (likely plateauing at some point), and that ethical scale may not particularly correspond to the scale of legality. Which is pretty much unavoidable, because laws about age-related stuff generally speaking have to have a cutoff age lest they become unworkable. > > (2) There is clearly some relevance to whether someone physically looks mature. NOT in a “this is an excuse that should get me a shorter sentence prison” sense, but in a “how people probably think about the offender” sense. This is for two reasons: > (a) Most people are physically attracted to people of one or other (or both) sexes. And in general, that sexual attraction starts once they are showing secondary sexual characteristics. For most people who are attracted to females, the physiological reaction they’d have to a photo of a naked 8-year-old girl and a naked 14-year-old girl are very very different. We all understand that. So the crime of raping an 8-year-old is vastly more alien and horrifying to us because it’s not only illegal and damaging, it’s also twisted and incomprehensible. > (b) There’s also the possible ignorance factor. If a 10-year-old literally looks like a 16-year-old and an 18-year-old hits on her, honestly believing her to be 16, well, that’s something that we can understand… we’ve all heard tales of 30-year-old men sleeping with 20-year-old women who turn out to be very mature looking 16-year-olds. > > To put it another way, if I had an 18-year-old acquaintance who was convicted of statutory raping a 10-year-old, I wouldn’t say “well, that 10-year-old looked 16, hey, let’s use that as evidence and appeal this wrongful conviction”, but if I was convinced that honest-ignorance-of-age was involved that might well affect how I personally felt about the 18-year-old, how willing I was to continue to be associated with someone who had been convicted (correctly) of committing what society generally views as an incredibly heinous crime. > None of this means that rape of anyone is OK ever, or that rape of children is OK ever. But to respond to Broomstick’s very correct point that not all rape, and not even all rape-of-underaged-people, is the same; as if Broomstick were somehow being an apologist for rape, or trying to downplay it, is just bizarre. People are acting as if Broomstick said “sure, he raped a kid, but the kid was a 10-year-old, and some 10-year-olds look sexually mature, so, hey, mistakes happen, not a biggie” or something like that. Which could not be further from the truth. This is just an incredibly long-winded and seriously overly-invested way of saying “She’s right you know? Raping some 10 year olds is a little more normal than raping others. I mean as far as the big picture of rape goes… not that I approve of any child rape… at all! But it’s not quite as bad as it would be if it were an infant or a ten year old who wasn’t already asking for it by being sexually mature.” Child rape is either acceptable or unacceptable. There aren’t any shades of gray. This stubborn attempt to insist that some perceived technical variance in the severity of different kinds of child rape is at best totally irrelevant and unhelpful to any discussion of the subject, and at worst advocating for some child rapes to be considered less severe because the child was hot, after all. Those are the only two ways you can go with the subject you’re defending. It is perfectly fair to ask you which one it is. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/351 "2014-07-06T11:25:27Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > You seem to be pretty heavily invested in white knighting for a pedophile apologist. I notice that your Flickr stream is loaded with pictures of you frolicking in the sand with prepubescent boys, and even giving them piggy back rides. Are those boys sexually developed enough to suit your and Broomstick’s criteria of deserving to be raped? (As opposed to infants, of course, which would just be plain wrong) One of the ugliest SDMB posts I’ve encountered. As Evil Captor implies, this approaches the platonic ideal of McCarthyism. Do you have a cave you could crawl in to? if not could you dig a small hole in some dirt? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/352 "2014-07-06T11:55:39Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > One of the ugliest SDMB posts I’ve encountered. As Evil Captor implies, this approaches the platonic ideal of McCarthyism. Wait . . .she’s a commie as well?:eek: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/353 "2014-07-06T12:13:27Z")
Wow, looks like I missed the food fight. Just as well, after 15 years of the Dope, I can miss one or two. I’m strictly agnostic about whether people should feel skeevy about reading books by, or otherwise consuming the works of, persons who’ve sexually abused children, or aided and abetted same. I sure would, but I’m not ready to pass judgment on those who wouldn’t. In the case of a mediocre\* talent like MZB, it’s a pretty low-cost thing for me. If we were to find out that Ludwig van Beethoven buggered six year olds in between composing symphonies, that would test my attitude a hell of a lot more. - I read a rather penetrating essay recently - too much trouble to locate it right now - about Hollywood’s recent predilection for developing Strong Female Characters who don’t do anything meaningful with their strength. In the two MZB books I’ve read (_Firebrand_ and _The Mists of Avalon_) the protagonists fit that description to a T. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/354 "2014-07-06T13:43:01Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > You seem to be pretty heavily invested in white knighting for a pedophile apologist. I notice that your Flickr stream is loaded with pictures of you frolicking in the sand with prepubescent boys, and even giving them piggy back rides. Are those boys sexually developed enough to suit your and Broomstick’s criteria of deserving to be raped? (As opposed to infants, of course, which would just be plain wrong) Or, option (b), he seems to be heavily invested in fighting ignorance. And his contributions herein do just that. > [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Those are the only two ways you can go with the subject you’re defending. It is perfectly fair to ask you which one it is. That’s absolutely not true. It’s a good illustration of the fallacy of the excluded middle. We are perfectly capable of saying that Act #1 is heinous and repulsive, and _also_ acknowledging that Act #2 is heinous, repulsive, _and worse than Act #1_. And I suspect that if someone presented that thought, you might agree…without quite comprehending that the truth of that statement makes it virtually mathematically accurate to say that Act #1 is not as bad as Act #2. For some reason, you have conflated this simple observation into a wholesale approval for Act #1. Why? Why is it impossible to compare two acts of depravity and evil and conclude that while both are despicable, one is worse than the other? What law of philosophy or nature forbids this comparison? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/355 "2014-07-06T13:54:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is it impossible to compare two acts of depravity and evil and conclude that while both are despicable, one is worse than the other? What law of philosophy or nature forbids this comparison? Maybe it’s the comparison criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/356 "2014-07-06T14:05:32Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Maybe it’s the comparison criteria. I don’t quite follow. Comparison criteria would include the harm done to the victim, both physical and emotional trauma being harm, the culpability and motivation of the actor, the degree of revulsion society generally imputes to the act… Perhaps other criteria I’m missing. But how does any of that preclude being able to weigh two acts against each other and opine that both are depraved, but one more so than the other? Can you explain what you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/357 "2014-07-06T15:01:13Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > - I read a rather penetrating essay recently - too much trouble to locate it right now - about Hollywood’s recent predilection for developing Strong Female Characters who don’t do anything meaningful with their strength. In the two MZB books I’ve read (_Firebrand_ and _The Mists of Avalon_) the protagonists fit that description to a T. [This it?](http://thedissolve.com/features/exposition/618-were-losing-all-our-strong-female-characters-to-tr/) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/358 "2014-07-06T15:25:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t quite follow. > > Comparison criteria would include the harm done to the victim, both physical and emotional trauma being harm, the culpability and motivation of the actor, the degree of revulsion society generally imputes to the act… Perhaps other criteria I’m missing. > > But how does any of that preclude being able to weigh two acts against each other and opine that both are depraved, but one more so than the other? > > Can you explain what you mean? OK. Two rapes occur. Bother women are thirty years of age, live in the same geographical area, went to the same high-school. One is a nun, the other is a prostitute. To me, using their vocations as comparison criteria is wrong. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems that’s what was happening in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/359 "2014-07-06T15:27:35Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Child rape is either acceptable or unacceptable. There aren’t any shades of gray. Nonsense. Here are 4 different acts: (1) Someone literally penis-in-vagina rapes a 3-year-old girl, causing massive internal trauma (2) Someone gets naked with a 3-year-old girl and pleasures himself manually while touching her external genitalia with his fingers (3) Someone goes out, meets a consenting woman who kinda sets off his might-or-might-not-be-old-enough alarms, wonders if she’s 18, kind of intends to check, has a bit too much to drink, convinces himself that of course she must be, has sex with her, and it turns out she was 14 (4) Someone rapes an unwilling 14-year-old at gunpoint All four of those are “child rape”. All four are things which I believe should carry several criminal consequences. But no two of those, in my opinion, are “equally bad”. If I learned that someone had committed one of those four acts I would react differently for each of the four. And of course you could come up with zillions of other variations, again, not all precisely equally bad. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/360 "2014-07-06T15:35:40Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > OK. Two rapes occur. Bother women are thirty years of age, live in the same geographical area, went to the same high-school. One is a nun, the other is a prostitute. > > To me, using their vocations as comparison criteria is wrong. > > Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems that’s what was happening in this thread. I agree that using the example criteria you offer would be wrong. I don’t agree that a similar thing is happening in this thread, at least with respect to MaxTheVool’s commentary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973.md?page=19)