# Now that Marion Z. Bradley's child raping has come out, does it change your desire to reread her? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973 "2014-06-30T00:25:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/421 "2014-07-10T12:57:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I do have a problem with them lying about what I actually said. Did he _say_ you said you were OK with it? No, he didn’t, he just said you had a friend. So that accusation about lying, that would be…a lie! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/422 "2014-07-10T13:38:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Eh, can’t tell when you’re being mocked, can you? In plain text? No. It’s like sarcasm - it doesn’t come across in plain text. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/423 "2014-07-10T13:42:02Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Are those people who are attracted to teenagers? Everybody is attracted to teenagers. Or at least older teenagers. > [@MrDibble](#): > > No. Look it up.No, this is not true. “Everybody” is not. Some people are attracted exclusively to mature adults. Or even aged folks. It’s not everybody but attraction to teenagers is common enough that I don’t think it can be classified as abnormal or pathological. As Rune notes, the vast majority of people can restrain inappropriate impulses. Acting on inappropriate impulses is where things become criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/424 "2014-07-10T13:48:05Z")
Interestingly, no-one has mentioned the related fact that the writer Mem Fox (writes picture books) was involved in a similar type of incident here in Australia three years ago where her husband was found guilty of having an inappropriate relationship with a seventeen-year-old high school student in the 1980s. [Article here.](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-08/mem-foxs-husband-guilty-of-child-abuse/2787434) Some time before that happened, she wrote a newspaper article about how putting your child in daycare was child abuse. I read that and thought “WTH?” I mean I’m not a parent (yet) being pretty young, but I can still see that’s pretty weird. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/425 "2014-07-10T13:48:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Of course it matters what happens to the kid. What happens to the kid is a crime and always bad. Which is like totally supported by this statement: > [@Broomstick](#): > > It has NOTHING to do with the children. \ > I has to do with the ADULT. > [@](#): > > I’m not rehashing the rest of it because we’ve already been over that. Except the parts where you deliberately lied about the age of Victim X to make MZB/Breen sound better. You’ve just avoided that part. Oh and the part where, despite the under-oath confessions, the sworn documents, the corroborating evidence, the circumstantial evidence, you could only sneer at Moira until her brother spoke up. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/426 "2014-07-10T14:08:01Z")
> [@Morwen Edhelwen](#): > > Interestingly, no-one has mentioned the related fact that the writer Mem Fox (writes picture books) was involved in a similar type of incident here in Australia three years ago where her husband was found guilty of having an inappropriate relationship with a seventeen-year-old high school student in the 1980s. [Article here.](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-08/mem-foxs-husband-guilty-of-child-abuse/2787434) > > Some time before that happened, she wrote a newspaper article about how putting your child in daycare was child abuse. I read that and thought “WTH?” I mean I’m not a parent (yet) being pretty young, but I can still see that’s pretty weird. EDIT: Related in that that was also a child sexual abuse case where a well-known author was involved. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/427 "2014-07-10T14:25:16Z")
Guys, give Broomstick a break. They do things very differently in NW Indiana. It’s the Eastern Kentucky of the Upper Midwest. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/428 "2014-07-10T15:11:14Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > the part where you implied that one of the victims was lying (Moira)…until a man (her brother) corroborated her, > [@Fenris](#): > > you could only sneer at Moira until her brother spoke up. Yeah, that was oddly misogynist of her. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/429 "2014-07-10T15:20:10Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Except the parts where you deliberately lied about the age of Victim X to make MZB/Breen sound better. You’ve just avoided that part. > > Oh and the part where, despite the under-oath confessions, the sworn documents, the corroborating evidence, the circumstantial evidence, you could only sneer at Moira until her brother spoke up. Of course none of that happened, at least not in any objectively true fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/430 "2014-07-10T15:46:03Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Except the parts where you deliberately lied about the age of Victim X to make MZB/Breen sound better. You’ve just avoided that part. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Of course none of that happened, at least not in any objectively true fashion. In your desperate white-knighting of Broomsie you seem to forget a hard timeline I posted of the events back in post ~182. Objective facts: 1. I posted the age of Victim X and linked to several corroborating sites in the first post 2. She then lies indirectly about the age of the victim to diminish Breen’s crime > [@Broomstick in post 112](#): > > The Ardais/Syrtis scenario is the only one “pedo” I recall (which, strictly speaking, was ephebophilliac. Which fits more in line with Breen’s offenses than strictly pedophillia) 1. She then _admits_ she knew about the age of the victim being ten (10) years old when she called Breen an ephebophilliac. > [@me](#): > > You don’t actually read the cites presented, do you?[responding to the absurd ephebophilla claim] I don’t mean the links, I mean, like in my OP where I point out that one of the children that Breen raped (for three solid years) and that MZB point-blank admits to covering up was ten (10) years old. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, I’m aware of that. I’ve been aware of that for a number of years now. I have zero hesitation talking about the Breen case, what he was accused and convicted of, his dying in prison, and her defense of him whenever the topic comes up. Why do I need to read those cites over and over? 1. Rather than just admitting she was wrong or screwed up in that post she then goes on to say > [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s quite clear that your assumption is that I have never read the cites in the OP (nevermind I’ve known about them for years, except for the recent one from Moira) and that if I don’t draw the same conclusions you do I have some “weird emotional attachment” which, you know, is _totally_ unbiased on your part :rolleyes: not! Again, confirming she knew the victim was ten and she was lying when she called Breen an ephebophilliac. So, it might make you feel good to be a white knight protecting the crazy-lady from her own words, but the facts stand on their own. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/431 "2014-07-10T15:58:40Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In plain text? No. It’s like sarcasm - it doesn’t come across in plain text. You address _that_, but not the fact that you wrongfully accused someone of lying? You’re a piece of work. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/432 "2014-07-10T16:01:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s not everybody but attraction to teenagers is common enough that I don’t think it can be classified as abnormal or pathological. If only I’d said that in my very next sentence. Oh, wait, I did! Which has got fuck and all to do with MZB or Breen. But keep fucking that (teenaged, so it’s “understandable”) chicken ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/433 "2014-07-10T16:03:20Z")
> [@Morwen Edhelwen](#): > > Interestingly “Interestingly”? Why would it be interesting? It’s got fuck-all to do with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/434 "2014-07-10T16:06:58Z")
> [@Morwen Edhelwen](#): > > EDIT: Related in that that was also a child sexual abuse case where a well-known author was involved. It’s not “child sexual abuse” if the person is over the age of consent. Just very, very skeevy (and illegal because of power relationships). And I think you have a very provincial idea of “well known” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/435 "2014-07-10T16:48:46Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Of course it matters what happens to the kid. What happens to the kid is a crime and always bad. > > Where it matters for the adult is whether rehabilitation is even remotely possible or simply impossible. I don’t really get your point. You’ve said that raping a 10 year old is less bad than raping a 3 year old because, from the perspective of the rapist, they aren’t quite as broken. Okay, but from the perspective of the victim, any victim of rape, is it okay to say, “Well, your rapist at least wasn’t as broken”? Or even, “While what happened to you is really bad, it’s less bad than what happened to that person over there”? I think, for example, if I were raped, I wouldn’t be particularly amenable to someone saying “Well, at least you weren’t three, because that would be even worse.” The short version of this is: the less-brokenness of the perpetrator does not make it better for the victim. And Whether the person can be rehabilitated does not change the severity of the crime. Would you agree with both of these things? I can understand saying from a societal POV rather than the victim’s that killing someone and then, say, burying them in a septic tank (to mix some recent stories) feels more horrific and transgressive than killing them and leaving them where they lie. Or any number of things that really don’t impact the victim at all can make a crime feel more disgusting or less. But when we pare it all down and have two victims, I have a really tough time differentiating their levels of pain and suffering based on anything like age or superficial characteristics. And crime, at its root, really is about the victim’s suffering. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/436 "2014-07-10T17:09:43Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > In your desperate white-knighting of Broomsie you seem to forget a hard timeline I posted of the events back in post ~182. What you said was: Except the parts where you deliberately lied about the age of Victim X to make MZB/Breen sound better. There are three components of that: (1) deliberately (2) lied (3) to make MZB/Breen sound better If you can convince me that the word “ephebophilliac” absolutely positively could not refer to a 10-to-13-year-old, then I might agree you’re right about #2. If you can convince me that Broomstick was aware of that distinction WHEN SHE MADE THE CLAIM IN THE FIRST PLACE, then I might agree that you’re right about #1. I have no idea how you’re going to convince me that #3 is clearly and objectively true without either Broomstick admitting that, yeah, she was just trying to MZB sound better, or some kind of mind reading. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/437 "2014-07-10T17:20:12Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t really get your point. You’ve said that raping a 10 year old is less bad than raping a 3 year old because, from the perspective of the rapist, they aren’t quite as broken. There are various criteria that society uses to judge the overall “badness” of a crime. One of them is its effect on the victim. But that’s certainly not the only one. It’s easy to come up with dozens of examples of pairs of crimes in which the victim suffered the same in each case, but society views ones crime as worse than the other. Broomstick’s argument may or may not hold water, but you can’t defeat it simply by saying “well, the suffering of the victim is the same in each, QED”. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/438 "2014-07-10T17:23:42Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > If you can convince me that the word “ephebophilliac” absolutely positively could not refer to a 10-to-13-year-old, then I might agree you’re right about #2. If you can convince me that Broomstick was aware of that distinction WHEN SHE MADE THE CLAIM IN THE FIRST PLACE, then I might agree that you’re right about #1. I have no idea how you’re going to convince me that #3 is clearly and objectively true without either Broomstick admitting that, yeah, she was just trying to MZB sound better, or some kind of mind reading. I’m not going to waste too much time with silly “prove the definition” game. She used the word, it’s assumed that she knew what it meant, especially a word as silly and hyper-specialized as ephebophile. It’s up to you to show that she was such a moron that she used a hyper-specific word (when a general word would have done better) without knowing it’s meaning\*. She’s also never admitted to using the word wildly incorrectly, so again, the assumption is that she stands by it’s meaning. Therefore, until you can prove she was so stupid that she used a word that means “has the hots for people 15-19” ([cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophile)) without knowing it’s meaning and in the absence of proof of stupidity, we can only assume malice. I don’t know why you’re so invested in her, but happy white-knighting. \*It’s as though she claimed that someone had “gastroparesis” rather than “tummy ache”. If she’s going to use precise terms, the assumption is that she knows why she’s making the specification. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/439 "2014-07-10T17:26:09Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I don’t know why you’re so invested in her, but happy white-knighting. Some people value their femurs more than others. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/440 "2014-07-10T17:35:39Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I’m not going to waste too much time with silly “prove the definition” game. She used the word, it’s assumed that she knew what it meant, especially a word as silly and hyper-specialized as ephebophile. > > It’s up to you to show that she was such a moron that she used a hyper-specific word (when a general word would have done better) without knowing it’s meaning\*. She’s also never admitted to using the word wildly incorrectly, so again, the assumption is that she stands by it’s meaning. Therefore, until you can prove she was so stupid that she used a word that means “has the hots for people 15-19” ([cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophile)) without knowing it’s meaning and in the absence of proof of stupidity, we can only assume malice. > > I don’t know why you’re so invested in her, but happy white-knighting. > > \*It’s as though she claimed that someone had “gastroparesis” rather than “tummy ache”. If she’s going to use precise terms, the assumption is that she knows why she’s making the specification. Let’s perform an experiment: Broomstick: you used the word “ephebophile” to refer to MZB’s husband’s crimes, which I believe were against a boy aged 10-13. Fenris has produced a cite that appears to show that that was an incorrect usage. How can you explain this apparent discrepancy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973.md?page=23)