# Now that Marion Z. Bradley's child raping has come out, does it change your desire to reread her? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973 "2014-06-30T00:25:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/81 "2014-06-30T22:35:13Z")
That you label it kind of iffy is very troubling to me. Several women have written about the nature of their relationships with him and he admitted that what they wrote was true. What legal action was taken against him is not my concern. That is a matter for his victims and the UK to handle if they have not done so already. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/82 "2014-06-30T22:43:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What if the profits are going to someone who was an enabler of those two child molesters- Lisa Waters, who admitted to covering up Breen’s sexual abuse in court. Then just buy the books used, orrow them from libraries or \ torrent the hell out of them and bollocks to them getting any profits! There are a number of ways to read something without the money supporting the original author. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/83 "2014-06-30T23:30:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > As just noted, it was the book entitled “Darkover,” and was somewhere in the first few pages. It was a definite admission of practicing scapegoating. It even began with a somewhat conciliatory phrasing. “It may not be fair…” Something like that. It may not be fair to blame all men… But she quickly concludes that it is necessary to blame all men, and that was the point she lost me. > > (Some men, yes! A great many men are misogynist shits. Even in this day and age, I hear some men saying it was a mistake to give women the right to vote! To me, that kind of sexist troglodytism is startling, and not a little horrifying. But not all men! Some of us really aren’t “the enemy.” Bradley’s method was to treat all men as enemies…even the ones who are taking her to dinner as the guest of a convention.) I’m looking at my collection and I don’t see a book called “Darkover”. The chronologically first book (by internal order) is “Darkover Landfall” (written later, takes place earlier.) I didn’t see that quote (or a reasonable paraphrase) in the first few chapters. I also checked out a couple of the “Free Amazon” books (which is where she lost me for anti-man vibes, so I agree with you in general) and the closest I could find was the Free Amazon screed: > [@](#): > > THE OATH OF THE FREE AMAZONS > From this day forth, I renounce the right to marry save as a freemate. No man shall bind me di catenas and I will dwell in no man’s household as a barragana. > > I swear that I am prepared to defend myself by force if I am attacked by force, and that I shall turn to no man for protection. > > From this day forth I swear I shall never again be known by the name of any man, be he father, guardian, lover or husband, but simply and solely as the daughter of my mother. > > From this day forth I swear I will give myself to no man save in my own time and season and of my own free will, at my own desire; I will never earn my bread as the object of any man’s lust > > From this day forth I swear I will bear no child to any man save for my own pleasure and at my own time and choice; I will bear no child to any man for house or heritage, clan or inheritance, pride or posterity; I swear that I alone will determine rearing and fosterage of any child I bear, without regard to any man’s place, position or pride. > > From this day forth I renounce allegiance to any family, clan, household, warden or liege lord, and take oath that I owe allegiance only to the laws of the land as a free citizen must; to the kingdom, the crown and the Gods. > > I shall appeal to no man as of right, for protection, support or succor: but shall owe allegiance only to my oath-mother, to my sisters in the Guild and to my employer for the season of my employment. > > And I further swear that the members of the Guild of Free Amazons shall be to me, each and every one, as my mother, my sister or my daughter, born of one blood with me, and that no woman sealed by oath to the Guild shall appeal to me in vain. > > From this moment, I swear to obey all the laws of the Guild of Free Amazons and any lawful command of my oath-mother, the Guild members or my elected leader for the season of my employment. And if I betray any secret of the Guild, or prove false to my oath, then I shall submit myself to the Guild-mothers for such discipline as they shall choose; and if I fail, then may every woman’s hand turn against me, let them slay me like an animal and consign my body unburied to corruption and my soul to the mercy of the Goddess. Could you have been thinking of that? > [@](#): > > That’s good to know. I was judging him too harshly, on the basis of only one encounter, and am happy to know it wasn’t truly representative. > > I’d rather know good things about people than bad. I’ll tell you wonderful stories about Jack McDevitt or Timothy Zahn or Vernor Vinge. Absolute perfect sweethearts, nicest people you could ever hope to meet. > > To me, there should be some barrier between the author and his work. I’ll shrug off some bad behavior. Jerry Pournelle used to push very hard at that boundary. Harlan Ellison crossed it. Orson Scott Card crossed it. But they had to work pretty damn hard at it, going above and beyond the call of assholery. This exactly is how I’m coming to feel about it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/84 "2014-07-01T00:00:34Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I’m looking at my collection and I don’t see a book called “Darkover”. The chronologically first book (by internal order) is “Darkover Landfall” (written later, takes place earlier.) . . . Oh, fudge. I can’t remember, then. “Darkover Landfall” doesn’t sound right. It definitely wasn’t the Oath of a Free Warrior you quoted from. It wasn’t a great declaration of that nature, but a smaller-scale statement, something much more conversational. I’m almost sure it began with a conciliatory phrase, something like, “It may not be fair…” It might even have been in the author’s forward and not in the book itself. (I read the book in a “Feminist Science Fiction” class, which, in fact, was a lot of fun. Ursula LeGuin and Octavia Butler and Charlotte Gilman and Marion Bradley.) ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/85 "2014-07-01T00:20:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Were the proceeds from her books and stories used to pay for her husband’s defense? I don’t know anything about who paid for Breen’s lawyers or where the money came from, but according to Wikipedia Bradley and Breen separated in 1979 (although they remained on friendly terms) and divorced in 1990, the same year that Breen was arrested for child molestation. I would assume they had separate bank accounts by that point if not earlier, although of course Bradley could have chosen to pay for Breen’s lawyers if she wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/86 "2014-07-01T01:05:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m not actually sure if it’s the first, but the title of the book was “Darkover.” > [@Trinopus](#): > > As just noted, it was the book entitled “Darkover,” and was somewhere in the first few pages. I never read any of the Darkover novels\*, but I am a librarian so I’m good at finding books. 🙂 As far as I can tell none of the novels are titled simply _Darkover_ and most do not even include the name _Darkover_ in the main title. But there are also a lot of Darkover short story anthologies, and one of them is called _Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Darkover_. It seems likely that this would be referred to/remembered as simply _Darkover_. A preview of _Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Darkover_ is available on [Amazon](http://www.amazon.com/Marion-Zimmer-Bradleys-Darkover-anthology/dp/1938185226), but while there is an introduction by Bradley I’m not seeing anything there about blaming all men for anything. She actually makes a dismissive remark about “the louder and more obnoxious feminists” who complain that there’s a “conspiracy in science fiction”. Could you be mixing this book up with something else you read in the same class? \*I did once read one of the anthologies of Darkover stories written by other authors, but I don’t remember it very well. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/87 "2014-07-01T01:49:48Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Up until a couple of weeks ago, I didn’t even know the name of her husband. Now I know it, I know he was a pedophile and that she enabled it, and that she was also a pedophile. > > I’ve read and reread many of the Darkover books; I own most of them. I like them. > > And at this point, I just don’t know what to do with my repugnance for her actions, and my enjoyment of her books. This is where I am right now. I own quite a few of the Darkover books, as well as the Avalon series, and re-read them every so often (and was planning on filling in the gaps in my Darkover collection. Now, I don’t know. Intellectually, I can understand the separation of the art from the artist. But emotionally… Well, for example, I know that I used to love many of Mel Gibson’s movies, and still own a few, but now, when I am looking for a movie to rewatch or suggest, I somehow manage to ignore those movies. So, I have a feeling the same thing will happen here. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/88 "2014-07-01T01:55:31Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I never read any of the Darkover novels\*, but I am a librarian so I’m good at finding books. 🙂 As far as I can tell none of the novels are titled simply _Darkover_ and most do not even include the name _Darkover_ in the main title. But there are also a lot of Darkover short story anthologies, and one of them is called _Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Darkover_. It seems likely that this would be referred to/remembered as simply _Darkover_. > > A preview of _Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Darkover_ is available on [Amazon](http://www.amazon.com/Marion-Zimmer-Bradleys-Darkover-anthology/dp/1938185226), but while there is an introduction by Bradley I’m not seeing anything there about blaming all men for anything. She actually makes a dismissive remark about “the louder and more obnoxious feminists” who complain that there’s a “conspiracy in science fiction”. Could you be mixing this book up with something else you read in the same class? > > \*I did once read one of the anthologies of Darkover stories written by other authors, but I don’t remember it very well. Dang… I guess I’m deep in “Never Mind” territory. I remember the quote fairly well, and that it was in the first ten pages or so of a Darkover book. Beyond that, nothin’. All I’ve got now is that she was really rude to several people in my presence, including officers of the fan club she was a guest speaker for, and including insulting the people who were buying her dinner. The child molestation bits are just light-years worse than anything I ever had thought she could have done. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/89 "2014-07-01T02:17:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Preferring not to know it lest it interfere with the story is one thing…but can you so easily put it aside and pretend it never happened once you _do_ know? Yes, when I’m reading an MZB novel I’m NOT constantly thinking “this was written by a child molester”. I actually _don’t_ think about the creator of a work while I am enjoying the work. I don’t “pretend it never happened”, I just don’t think about it constantly, or for that time I’m re-reading a novel or whatever. If someone mentions the Awful Thing That Person Did a day later I have no trouble recalling it, so no, I don’t forget it. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/90 "2014-07-01T03:44:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I actually _don’t_ think about the creator of a work while I am enjoying the work. Anyone ever read Vonnegut without thinking about Vonnegut? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/91 "2014-07-01T03:45:03Z")
For what it’s worth, I’m not against boycotts – I don’t eat at Chik-Fil-A, nor do I shop at Walmart unless I absolutely have to. So, I’m not condemning anyone necessarily for not reading MZB, or boycotts. I’m just saying that being able to separate the two doesn’t make a person immoral necesssarily. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/92 "2014-07-01T05:39:11Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I don’t know anything about who paid for Breen’s lawyers or where the money came from, but according to Wikipedia Bradley and Breen separated in 1979 (although they remained on friendly terms) and divorced in 1990, the same year that Breen was arrested for child molestation. I would assume they had separate bank accounts by that point if not earlier, although of course Bradley could have chosen to pay for Breen’s lawyers if she wanted to. She definitely paid for his living expenses between the separation and incarceration - and he didn’t move far, just next door, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/93 "2014-07-01T05:43:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m just saying that being able to separate the two doesn’t make a person immoral necesssarily. No-one’s said that. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/94 "2014-07-01T08:21:27Z")
If anything, at worst I’d call it maybe “amoral” rather than “immoral.” But I’m not sure it even rises to the “amoral” charge. I’d understand not wanting to enrich the coffers of someone whose acts one despises, but in this case, MZB is dead, and I’d imagine most people don’t really know her SO Lisa enough to care that she’s being enriched if indeed she is. For myself, I don’t think I’d be able to separate the artist from the art if I weren’t already deeply attached to it. This would be true especially if some of the person’s works (in this case, fiction) carries uncomfortable overtones or reminders of the artist’s… well, I was gonna say “foibles” but that’s hardly what I’d call child abuse of this sort. Flaws? Nefarious behavior? Fill in the blanks so that it’s a range that suits “shoplifting” to “drunk-driving” to “assault” to “rape” to “murder.” Since I’ve never read MZB–and although _Mists of Avalon_ was on my “someday I should probably get to it” list–I probably won’t bother now. OTOH, if it were some unmatched classic that I felt was important part of culture, I would give it a try. I’m an opera lover and the first time I listened to the beginning of Wagner’s _Tristan und Isolde_ I adored it, despite my being Jewish and knowing his reputation. Hell, I’d be interested in seeing Hitler’s artwork, for that matter. Same goes for work I already adore and now know some icky things about the artists. I still love _30 Rock_ even though Alec Baldwin is bonkers, I enjoy Michael Richard’s work in _Seinfeld_ even though ditto, and Gary Oldman in anything, also ditto. Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra still give me chills with their incredible voices despite the numerous skeevy things in their pasts. And I will never ever stop listening to Michael Jackson. So I guess it’s a case-by-case basis with me. (On a lighter note… as painful as reading those transcripts was, I did get a giggle out of the mistake in the line, “I didn’t know her from Adam or Fox.” Guess the transcriber never heard the expression, “I don’t know her/him from _Adam’s off ox,_” meaning the hypothetical ox on the opposite side of hypothetical farmer Adam–his right side, in other words. It’s not a hugely common phrase, although it used to be more known, especially from someone growing up when MZB did. For example, it’s used in _It’s a Wonderful Life_ by Sheldon Leonard’s Nick the Bartender during the Alt/Evil Bedford Falls sequence.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/95 "2014-07-01T09:33:57Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > I’ve never read anything by Bradley that I recall (which is rather odd in that I’ve read a lot of SF and Arthurian stuff). Same here, I’m very familiar with the name but none of the books ring a bell (I checked her bibliography). Add me to the list of “just found out”. Since apparently I’ve never read one of her books I don’t think I’m going to now. I wasn’t able to get even to one quarter of Garcia Marquez’ autobiography because of his attitude about sex, but while I was no fan of his other work the specific issue that bothered me never showed up in it that I remember; I don’t know whether MZB separated so well or not, but from what I read in this thread she “separated” waaaay too well (cf. “why would I help that kid?”). ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/96 "2014-07-01T10:42:01Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Anyone who can systematically rape their own daughter and then say this about a _10 year old_, deserves nothing from me except a quick fetching of the torches and pitchforks. What a vile, disgusting fuck. Agreed that what MZB did was wrong and there’s something profoundly wrong with her as a person. But I’m having a hard time feeling the kind of disgust _at her as a person_ you and some others have expressed, because given what she’s said, I’m practically certain she herself was abused in just the same way as a kid. People who suffer through that just don’t generally know what’s normal, and can’t think normally when it comes to sex. There really is reason to have compassion for her here, even as one condemns her actions and calls for her to suffer consequences for them. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/97 "2014-07-01T11:15:02Z")
I’ve got something embarrassing I have to get off my chest… For years, and I have no idea why, I thought the author’s name was _Morton_ Zimmer Bradley. 😕 I’d blame the alcohol, but I don’t drink. ---
**Author:** ![franz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@franz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/franz)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/98 "2014-07-01T11:15:15Z")
My lack of opinion hasn’t changed. same here… ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/99 "2014-07-01T11:17:32Z")
Considering many people come through molestation of that sort (and worse), yet break the cycle and understand exactly how completely devastating and wrong it is, yeah, I have no desire to feel any sympathy for someone that so defiantly goes forward perpetuating such hurt. Sorry. ETA: That was to **Frylock**. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973/100 "2014-07-01T11:46:54Z")
I had heard rumours about Breen a while ago, and had pretty much forgotten them, but nothing about MZB until maybe a month ago. I’m almost surprised that I’ve never read any of her books as I’ve been reading sf&f for decades. I’ll definitely be keeping it that way now. But back in around 1980 (give or take) Locus, or maybe SF Chronicle, the SF news magazines, re-published a list of books that some US school board had banned from their classrooms because of their sexual content. It listed various individual books but further down the list it had the entry ‘the entire Darkover series’. At the time this blanket ban for some fantasy books cracked us up (the other books were stuff like Arthur Miller, iirc) and the phrase, said portentiously, became a minor catchphrase for a time… Of course, I don’t know what the sexual content was that they objected to, they may just have thought it was a bit strong for young adults rather than any specific themes. Hadn’t thought about that for years… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-marion-z-bradleys-child-raping-has-come-out-does-it-change-your-desire-to-reread-her/691973.md?page=6)