# Now that the conventions are over let's discuss Clinton vs. Trump campaigns **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 29, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206 "2016-07-29T17:54:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/61 "2016-07-30T15:55:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The terms “shrill” and “queen of the harpies” are quite obviously sexist, because they are insults predicated on the object being a woman. It’s like arguing that saying “uppity” isn’t a racist term when used to describe a black person. > > The criticism that Clinton doesn’t give prepared speeches particularly well is perfectly valid, but when it’s couched in such derogatory terms, it should be called out. Clinton’s voice tone and timbre are very bothersome. Grating. Annoying. Advantage Trump. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/62 "2016-07-30T15:56:05Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Torture has been used this way, to be sure. However it can be a way to get vital information when that information is time critical. To categorically rule out any and all forms of torture, forever, might be too limiting. Except that those charged with conducting enhanced interrogation techniques have all stated on record that they are not effective and in fact do more harm than good. > [@Bullitt](#): > > Sometimes you have to fight hard to keep our democracy, if you can keep it. Can we not fight hard without resorting to committing war crimes? > [@Bullitt](#): > > Quite astute. If only the world were clearly black and white. Again, define non-combatant for me. What exactly does that mean? Where is the line drawn, across which attacking the family members is and is not justified? The line is (imperfectly) drawn at non-combatants. > [@Bullitt](#): > > To what end would we want to discuss this? I provide my justification, you provide your counterpoints. Then I provide my counterpoints. Where does this end? Let us agree to disagree. We may very well agree to disagree, but I’m genuinely interested in understand what justifications Trump supporters have for believing that Trump will change based on all evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/63 "2016-07-30T15:59:34Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Clinton’s voice tone and timbre are very bothersome. Grating. Annoying. Agree. > [@Bullitt](#): > > Advantage Trump. Disagree. Content matters more than pitch. But if we are going to judge by speech patterns alone, does it not bother you that Trump can’t speak in complete sentences, let alone express a well thought out idea that doesn’t fit on the front of a baseball cap? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/64 "2016-07-30T16:28:32Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Torture has been used this way, to be sure. However it can be a way to get vital information when that information is time critical. To categorically rule out any and all forms of torture, forever, might be too limiting. > > Sometimes you have to fight hard to keep our democracy, if you can keep it.4 > > Quite astute. If only the world were clearly black and white. Again, define non-combatant for me. What exactly does that mean? Where is the line drawn, across which attacking the family members is and is not justified? > > To what end would we want to discuss this? I provide my justification, you provide your counterpoints. Then I provide my counterpoints. Where does this end? Let us agree to disagree. Attacking family members is never justified. End of discussion. The moment you do that, you are not defending freedom anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/65 "2016-07-30T16:35:15Z")
It depends on what the family members do, right? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/66 "2016-07-30T17:10:00Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > It depends on what the family members do, right? If they take up arms, they become combatants and are fair game. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/67 "2016-07-30T17:18:20Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Clinton’s voice tone and timbre are very bothersome. Grating. Annoying. > > Advantage Trump. I’m not so sure. Clinton’s meter in prepared speeches is really miscalibrated, but Trump comes across as a buffoon. He’s edging closer and closer to that “you betcha!” level of ridiculousness of Sarah Palin, except his phrases are “believe me” and “yooooge.” Setting content totally aside, each one is going to grate on some people’s nerves, but Trump may be edging over to that Palin/Quayle territory of being thought of as little more than an SNL sketch when he opens his mouth. At this point, I have to call it a draw, with Trump perhaps having the bigger downside in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/68 "2016-07-30T17:18:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If they take up arms, they become combatants and are fair game. That is clear, and easy, and trite. But there are shades of gray, right? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/69 "2016-07-30T17:23:57Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That’ll earn you a warning, Saint Cad. You cannot address other posters that way. Well then I reported the post I responded to for accusation of sexism (via weasel wording) for saying the same thing some other posters have i.e. Clinton’s voice is hard to listen to. I guess we’ll see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/70 "2016-07-30T17:26:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > At this point, I have to call it a draw, with Trump perhaps having the bigger downside in the future. One thing I didn’t put in my analysis is that with so many well spoken Dems, it makes Clinton’s flaws even more obvious. Trump doesn’t have that problem because except for Ivanka everyone around him sounds as goofy as he he does. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/71 "2016-07-30T17:28:08Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > That is clear, and easy, and trite. But there are shades of gray, right? Are you expecting me to make your case for you? Go ahead and provide examples of cases where killing family members is justified. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/72 "2016-07-30T17:53:08Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > One thing I didn’t put in my analysis is that with so many well spoken Dems, it makes Clinton’s flaws even more obvious. Trump doesn’t have that problem because except for Ivanka everyone around him sounds as goofy as he he does. This is pretty much a textbook example of “I have my conclusion and now I’m going to say anything that supports it.” ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/73 "2016-07-30T18:48:48Z")
LOL, well, I guess we know which way Trump is going with this: [Already weaseling on whether or not he’ll debate](http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/30/media/donald-trump-presidential-debates-schedule/). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/74 "2016-07-30T19:15:49Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Torture has been used this way, to be sure. However it can be a way to get vital information when that information is time critical. To categorically rule out any and all forms of torture, forever, might be too limiting. The time bomb scenario is a myth, and even the SERE experts and military interrogators in the documentary (many of them also did testify in the Senate’s torture report) I cited report that you are wrong. And so is Trump. Do not vote for him. > [@Bullitt](#): > > Sometimes you have to fight hard to keep our democracy, if you can keep it. As the expert interrogators of the FBI also reported in the cited documentary, you are once again grossly wrong. There is no need to resort to torture, the Bush the lesser administration in the end did use torture to justify his actions and get (false) support for the invasion of Iraq.\*\* And you want a guy as president that will lead us to more of the same. \*\* That will not keep our democracy in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/75 "2016-07-30T19:23:00Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Torture has been used this way, to be sure. However it can be a way to get vital information when that information is time critical. So you know, “24” was \*not \*a documentary. > [@](#): > > Sometimes you have to fight hard to keep our democracy, if you can keep it. Or you can simply destroy it yourself. > [@](#): > > Again, define non-combatant for me. What exactly does that mean? It means you’re making an excuse. > [@](#): > > Where does this end? Let us agree to disagree. If you find yourself unable to defend a position, it’s time for you to abandon that position. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/76 "2016-07-30T20:03:14Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > LOL, well, I guess we know which way Trump is going with this: > > [Already weaseling on whether or not he’ll debate](http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/30/media/donald-trump-presidential-debates-schedule/). What I love about that is that he’s blaming HRC and the Dems for something that was determined and announced almost a year ago. It reminds me of his blustering that having the RNC in Cleveland was _totally_ his idea. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/77 "2016-07-31T01:14:28Z")
On the one hand we have a liar with poor judgment. On the other, we have Hillary Clinton. Obama pointed out the issue that’s been stuck in my craw. Trump has built his career stomping on the little guy, the small business man, the property owners, the tenants of buildings he owned. He is a selfish prick who has spent his career smashing the little guy so he can make money. And somehow he’s now going to be the champion of the working class? Give me a break. Trump is self-aggrandizing, thin-skinned, petty, vindictive prick who holds a grudge. Trump continues to spout off any dumb ole thing that runs through his head. Look at him encouraging espionage. “That was sarcasm.” Oh, and how are we to know the difference? “I’m going to build a wall, and Mexico is going to pay for it.” “I’m calling for a ban on all Muslims entering the country.” “I’m going to bring back water boarding, and a lot worse.” “I have sacrificed a lot, I’ve worked long hours, I’ve built big buildings.” I listened to Hillary’s acceptance speech. The only real problem was how long it went on. Those get tiresome from the best. She hit all the right points, she addressed the issues well, she even pulled off a joke - successfully. The men criticizing Hillary seem to be afraid that voting for her means giving up their balls. “She sounds like a scolding wife.” “She sounds like my middle school gym coach.” She’s not my first choice. I was hoping O’Malley would get some support, but he went nowhere. I was hoping the Dems would field someone good. Bernie did a great job pushing the Overton window to the left, but I really didn’t see him and his policies making a good solution. But Hillary is a far sight better than almost all the candidates the Republicans fielded. The Republican party has shifted so far right, Reagan looks like a liberal. The biggest claim for Trump seems to be that he doesn’t need experience, that his good business judgement, good negotiating skills, and ability to pick good advisers mean he’ll do a great job. Let’s see, his judgement shows a singular focus on making money for himself and damn anyone else. His advisers include global warming deniers, Corey Lewendowski (now on the outs), and whoever was supposed to vet Melania’s speech. And his negotiating skills seem to be of the level “do what I want or I’ll take my ball and go home”. We’ll drop out of NATO, we’ll stop protecting Japan and South Korea and let the get nuclear bombs of their own. He says we’ll repeal and replace Obamacare, because that sounds good on both fronts - the conservatives who hate it’s existence and the liberals who are happy it provides health insurance for those who otherwise had trouble affording it. It sounds great. So what if he doesn’t have any idea what that would actually look like, it sounds great, and that’s what’s important. I mean, he’s the friggin’ Birther-in-chief. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/78 "2016-07-31T02:20:50Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > It depends on what the family members do, right? Oh, are you proposing a careful investigation in the shrinking ISIS-held territory to find this out? Or will it be, as Trump proposed, payback. Might I remind you that the Gestapo was big on punishing villages where resistance fighters came from? Do you want to be like them? I live in the Bay Area also. Do you really want the government spying on your neighbors, like the nice Afghans who sell us Naan, who came here fleeing the Russians. As for business acumen, Fiorina has more than Trump (faint praise indeed) and how well did she do. She just lost stockholder value and laid off workers, but not not steal from customers or suppliers. Trump did. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/79 "2016-07-31T07:41:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Are you expecting me to make your case for you? Go ahead and provide examples of cases where killing family members is justified. No, and no thank you. I made my point. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206/80 "2016-07-31T07:45:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So you know, “24” was \*not \*a documentary. > > Or you can simply destroy it yourself. > > It means you’re making an excuse. > > If you find yourself unable to defend a position, it’s time for you to abandon that position. It means I don’t want to enter a pissing contest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-the-conventions-are-over-lets-discuss-clinton-vs-trump-campaigns/761206.md?page=5)