# Now that they are safe. WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2001, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668 "2001-11-16T04:00:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/21 "2001-11-16T07:19:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Cazzle is consistently a coherent, intelligent and courteous poster. Whatever I’ve read of hers has always been calm and human and friendly. Truthfully, she usually is. Which makes me wonder who’s stolen her password, because this bullshit about what Christians think, believe, while human and possibly calm, is certainly not coherent, intelligent, intelligent, or friendly. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/22 "2001-11-16T07:19:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cazzle \* > Yosemitebabe, the Americans may not have asked the Government to hold off, but the Australians did. OK. So…? Blame the relatives, then. Blame the specific Australian relatives, and no one else. Not the aid workers, and especially not the American aid workers. > [@](#): > > Now they admit they were preaching - “but not much”. Sure. Whatever. Who are “they”? I only saw the Americans being interviewed, the Americans are the only ones that admitted to answering questions about Jesus, after being asked. That doesn’t sound to “imposing” to me. In an earlier post, you said: > [@](#): > > Can’t Christians do anything for someone else without expecting a renouncing of old ways and embracing of their faith? For one thing, as has been brought up already, there’s no evidence that these aid workers were out to do that. And I’ll repeat, why don’t you show 'em how it’s done? Why don’t you put your butt on the line? And I’ll also ask - is my church “pushing an agenda”? We give away free food, in a CHURCH, and we are willing to answer religious questions _(when asked - just like the aid workers did in Afghanistan - **when asked** )_. So - do you think we should stop giving out free food? Are we ‘taking advantage’ of the people we feed? Are we ‘inflicting our message’ on them? Shouldn’t we stop? We are terrible people, right? You wanna be the final authority on what manner Christians give out aid? You want to show us how it’s done? Then go do it then, instead of bitching about how some people try to help other people. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/23 "2001-11-16T07:20:33Z")
Or intelligent. Or courteous. Or intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/24 "2001-11-16T07:25:09Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by cazzle \* \*\* > [@](#): > > You’re a fool. Christian spirit means giving without asking anything in return. \*\* Sorry, I goota ask. Where did you get this screwy idea??? I don’t feel sorry for the missionaries, but I do have a bit of admiration for them. Yeah, they knew what they were doing could have life-threatening consequences but they did it anyway, because it was something they believed in. I don’t share their beliefs, but ya gotta admit, it’s pretty damn gutsy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/25 "2001-11-16T07:25:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Redboss \* > **Cazzle** is consistently a coherent, intelligent and courteous poster. Whatever I’ve read of hers has always been calm and human and friendly. Well, you should tell her someone is posting under her screen name. > [@](#): > > Miller, Neurotik - your language is vile, your hateful invective preposterous. Thank you. I put a lot of work into that post. > [@](#): > > And you’re on the side of christianity? Yeah, trips me out too. > [@](#): > > I prefer the meek approach of my friend **Cazzle**. Indeed, I’m sure that one day she’ll inherit something good because of it. 🙂 Clever, but the idea of people like **cazzle** inheriting the Earth is pretty scary. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/26 "2001-11-16T07:53:50Z")
**Spouteth by Redboss:** > [@](#): > > Miller, Neurotik - your language is vile, your hateful invective preposterous. And you’re on the side of christianity? Dude…dis de pit, remember? 😃 **Also speaketh by Redboss:** > [@](#): > > Cazzle is consistently a coherent, intelligent and courteous poster. Whatever I’ve read of hers has always been calm and human and friendly. Cazzle may be a very nice warm human bean, but she should learn to read. :eek: **Speaketh by PhiloVance:** > [@](#): > > Kwitchakneejerkin’ responses. ---
**Author:** ![Redboss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/27 "2001-11-16T08:00:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > …in light of the fact that virtually every reputable report indicates these people were NOT prostletyzing or preaching, I’m very interested by your willingness to believe – no, your insistence – that they were. Well, not just her insistence, but a generally accepted understanding of the situation here in Australia. What I saw on Australian television was film of materials claimed to be in the possession of the arrested people, which were clearly aids to conversion. Videos about Jesus in local languages, picture books in local languages, stuff like that. Of course it was the Taliban’s claims, but I would say that the evidence presented deserved rebuttal, rather than dismissal. Even despite that evidence, I still appalled at the nastiness of the “christian” response here. I assume you’re praying for Cazzle while this slanging match is going on? My opinion is that the Australians concerned **were** missionaries, **were** proselytizing, and knew that they ran a risk. What comforted them was knowing (from memory, so it may be wonky): “Blessed are you when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven” That goes with the territory. Now that’s my opinion and I could be wrong, and we’ll know for sure fairly soon I think. But in the meantime I don’t need to suggest that people who disagree with me are morons, fucknuts, bitches or cold-hearted bastards. Perhaps that’s because I’m not a Jodi-Miller-Neurotik-christian. Thanks for your prayers and blessings. Bigger letters this time: I LOVE living in a secular country!! So **Cazzle** , are you coming this Friday? Pleeesze? Redboss ---
**Author:** ![Redboss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/28 "2001-11-16T08:06:14Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by PhiloVance \* Dude…dis de pit, remember? [quote] Ah yes, dear **detective** , but bad language is permissable, rather than compulsory. And I think sincere christians seek “to treat others as they would themselves” in whatever environment they seek out. Mate. Redboss ---
**Author:** ![Redboss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/29 "2001-11-16T08:09:21Z")
[/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/30 "2001-11-16T08:17:38Z")
REDBOSS – > [@](#): > > Well, not just her insistence, but a generally accepted understanding of the situation here in Australia. Maybe you’re getting different TV than we. > [@](#): > > What I saw on Australian television was film of materials claimed to be in the possession of the arrested people, which were clearly aids to conversion. Videos about Jesus in local languages, picture books in local languages, stuff like that. Of course it was the Taliban’s claims, but I would say that the evidence presented deserved rebuttal, rather than dismissal. Actually, considering the source (the Taliban) it doesn’t deserve rebuttal. It is theire allegation and their obligation to prove it. I’m amazed that you would take the word of the trusty Taliban for what happened and what didn’t, but that is of course your perogative. > [@](#): > > Even despite that evidence, I still appalled at the nastiness of the “christian” response here. I assume you’re praying for Cazzle while this slanging match is going on? I don’t believe I have been “slanging” CAZZLE – in obvious contrast to her “slanging” of my religion. You can assume what you like about what I pray, and when, and for whom, since you obviously know fuck-all about that. > [@](#): > > My opinion is that the Australians concerned were missionaries, were proselytizing, and knew that they ran a risk. There is no proof of this, and the missionaries in question deny it. But why believe them when you can think they are liars and shit on their religion and the work they do, surely done for nefarious motives. > [@](#): > > Now that’s my opinion and I could be wrong, and we’ll know for sure fairly soon I think. Funny you wouldn’t bother to withhold judgment under we “know for sure fairly soon.” But why not just begin condemning them now, right? > [@](#): > > But in the meantime I don’t need to suggest that people who disagree with me are morons, fucknuts, bitches or cold-hearted bastards. Perhaps that’s because I’m not a Jodi-Miller-Neurotik-christian. You know jack-shit about the kind of Christian I am, except at this point a pissed off one – not at CAZZLE but at you. So you can take your judgmental and self-righteous opinion about me and my faith and shove it straight up your ass, provided they will fit up there next to your head. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/31 "2001-11-16T08:18:09Z")
> [@](#): > > But in the meantime I don’t need to suggest that people who disagree with me are morons, fucknuts, bitches or cold-hearted bastards. Perhaps that’s because I’m not a Jodi-Miller-Neurotik-christian. Ooo, sorry. Hate to spoil your broad, unfair generalization, but I’m not remotely Christian. In consequence, I will not be praying for **cazzle**. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/32 "2001-11-16T08:30:42Z")
I can’t recall using too much profanity on this thread, and I don’t think I’ve called anyone any names. And yes, I am a Christian. What I’d like to know (please, anyone step up and answer) is if you think Christian aid workers, Christian charities, whatever, should not be allowed to, like, _let it be known_ that they are Christian? Because, by just letting it be known, they are “spreading the love of Jesus”, don’t you know. They are (in a subtle way) “preaching”. So - what should be done? Do you want all Christian charities to just shut down? Or stop identifying themselves as Christian, in any way? (Do you want to fund my church so they can rent a different building to give out food? Because right now the soup kitchen is in a CHURCH, with paintings of Jesus on the wall and stuff. How “imposing” of us…) And if you don’t think any church should “impose” their religion when giving aid, who will pick up the slack? Who will replace all these charities? A lot of charities are funded by Christians, you know. You want to pick up the slack? Since you think it’s so terrible, and all - since we are all “imposing” our religion while helping the needy, and all… ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/33 "2001-11-16T08:35:54Z")
Feh. They were just some folks doing what they thought was right. I don’t share their belief that converting Afghans to the Christian faith would be helpful, but I recognize their motives were altruistic, if quixotic. Who can be critical of that? Brave folks. ---
**Author:** ![Redboss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/34 "2001-11-16T08:40:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\*REDBOSS – > You know jack-shit about the kind of Christian I am, except at this point a pissed off one – not at CAZZLE but at you. So you can take your judgmental and self-righteous opinion about me and my faith and shove it straight up your ass, provided they will fit up there next to your head. \*\* God bless you, dear Jodi. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/35 "2001-11-16T08:48:51Z")
You know, **Redboss** , I may be using some pretty harsh language, but at least I’m not pissing on anyone’s religion. Maybe you should get off that high horse before you break your neck. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/36 "2001-11-16T08:49:18Z")
And you, dear REDBOSS. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/37 "2001-11-16T08:57:41Z")
I will try to not take it personally that some of you (who are so critical of what these aid workers were doing) have been apparently been ignoring my question. Is there something wrong with Christians helping out the needy “to show the love of Jesus”? Do you wish to dictate in what manner Christian charities do their good deeds? Should my church’s soup kitchen shut down, since we are (by letting them know we are Christian) “imposing” our religion on the poor and needy? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/38 "2001-11-16T10:57:46Z")
I’m not familiar with the aid agency for which these people were working. But I have done voluntary work for an overseas aid charity with a specifically Christian focus, and have had contact with several similar groups, and I think it’s safe to say the following. In general, charities of this type do _not_ set out to preach or proselytize. In general, charities of this type do _not_ make the provision of aid conditional on conversion to Christianity, or on hearing a Christian message, or on any faith-based criteria whatsoever. I would go so far as to say that most people involved would consider it morally wrong to make such a condition. The aid workers arrested in Afghanistan _may_, for all I know, belong to an agency that doesn’t behave like this. Since I only have the Taliban’s word for that, I’m inclined not to believe it. Christians are _not_ under any religious obligation to obey unjust laws. Arguably, we have an obligation to challenge them, by whatever means are appropriate and consistent with leading a Christian life. Explaining Christianity to someone who _asks_ about it, even if such an activity is illegal in the country concerned, is _not_ inconsistent with Christian beliefs. I do not believe the aid workers in Afghanistan did anything unChristian or morally reprehensible. Given that, at the worst, all they did was to exercise free speech and freedom of religious belief, I would hope that those who recognize those _fundamental human rights_ would support them rather than condemn them. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/39 "2001-11-16T11:01:30Z")
Okay, let’s get a few things straight, here. **Any** westerner who goes into Afghanistan has proved guts beyond belief. It takes a load of courage and is worthy of admiration. But if people enter as aid workers, their primary mission is one of giving aid. If they start proselytizing, **they’re endangering their mission**. They’re screwing it up for other aid workers and they’re getting themselves locked up in a place where they’re not doing any good whatsoever for anyone. Their own lives are theirs to risk if they deem the cause worthy. But IMHO, feeding the hungry must always take priority over converting them. And if they really brought videotapes and books with them, their priorities were not straight from the beginning. And what about the fate of the locals who might have associated with them ? Saying “They asked us, so we told them” is probably a really good way of getting the askees executed by the Talib method du jour. Like soldiers with too much courage and not enough discipline, they became liabilities to a good cause, not assets. They probably did so with the best of intentions, but let’s face it: It was a dumb thing to do. **yosemitebabe** , to answer your questions: _Is there something wrong with Christians helping out the needy “to show the love of Jesus”?_ Helping the needy is good. Have at it. _Do you wish to dictate in what manner Christian charities do their good deeds?_ If they do their good deeds in a manner that endangers their own people, endangers the people they’re presumably helping and makes it harder for other aid efforts ? Yup. _Should my church’s soup kitchen shut down, since we are (by letting them know we are Christian) “imposing” our religion on the poor and needy?_ Of course not. But consider the hypothetical: If the focus on Christianity was liable to have the kitchen shut down by authorities and you were faced with the choice of going secular or be shut down, wouldn’t you have to consider what was most important: Feeding the hungry or preaching to them ? S. Norman ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668/40 "2001-11-16T11:46:39Z")
The following are straight from the website of the church that the girls attended (bolding is mine): > [@](#): > > We are a body of Christians committed to passionately loving Jesus Christ, each other, **and those who do not yet have a relationship with Him**. > > Multiple questions have been asked about Dayna and Heather’s main purpose for their work in Afghanistan. “Dayna and Heather, as well other workers at Shelter Now, desire to display the love of God in practical ways by caring for those in need. **Their personal lives exude and communicate what they believe about God** and they live out their love for God through practical service,” Seibert said. > > In the course of their lives, they are open about their relationship with Jesus and **their desire for others to know him.** > > They have not denied that they showed the video in the home, and they have not denied their love for Jesus and **their desire for others to know Him**. > > I would say it this way, that there are “two hands” to the gospel of Jesus. One is the practical service of helping people, **and the other is sharing the hope that they have in Jesus**. The Christian materials that the Taliban confiscated were abundant and in the local languages. To verify their existence, they were shown to diplomats from several countries, including the U.S. It might be considered a grey area to some, but it sure looks like there might have been a bit of proselytizing going on. While they firmly deny trading food for conversion, trading food for listening hasn’t been denied. I personally find it wonderful when Christians provide _aid_. On the other hand, I find it disturbing when people give _Christian aid_. YMMV. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-they-are-safe-wtf/93668.md?page=3)