# Now THAT Was Fucking Helpful.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 10, 2002, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780 "2002-12-10T16:31:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/41 "2002-12-11T17:35:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Fuck you Crorex. > I asked for a cite, as the burden of proof is on clint to back up his assertion. thats the way it is, the way it was, and the way it always will be. \*\* Little testy are we? From my point of view, never trust the sources someone gives. They can filter out 99% of the sources related to other things and present just the best, disproportional information. It’s even worse on the internet, most of these goddamn news stories are 4th hand and you should see some of the anti palestian propaganda sites I found. Generally, if I want to know something, I’ll research it myself. How the hell do I know the other person isn’t using cites that aren’t full of crap. > [@](#): > > If you had taken thirty seconds to read some of your own cites, you would see that the link to [fair.org](http://fair.org) is talking about Israeli Defence Force using human shields. > > If you had taken 30 seconds to read the crimes of war link, you would see the only mention of human shields is this > bolding mine. > \*\* > the accusation of using human shields revolve around palestinian terrorists storing equipment in populated areas. Or the younger palestinians throwing stones at incursing israeli tanks, which they are not forced to do. Infact, the PA are discouraging children under 16 from taking part. > > (from your first link) \*\* Anyone under the age of 18 taking part in military actions, is a child soldier. So a 17 year old throwing molitovs for the PLA could be considered a child soldier. [http://www.rb.se/childwardatabase/efaq.htm#one](http://www.rb.se/childwardatabase/efaq.htm#one) So if they are encouraging children over the age of 16, some must then be under the age of 18. So, by discouraging children under 16 are they encouraging children OVER the age of 16 to take part? Kinda hard to say isn’t it? > [@](#): > > the accusation of the IDF using human shields were they forced palestinians ahead of them into houses that they suspected may be boobytrapped. > > Can you see the difference? 1. It’s not an accusation, it’s a documented fact. 2. You asked for cites about impropore use of children for military conflict. Oh no I included a wrong link. I _obviously_ don’t know the difference. > [@](#): > > typing “Palestinian Human Shield” into google is not doing research if you dont look at the links you post. > as for your last link, it dosent encourage children to fight against the tank. In fact, it says that the parents tell them NOT to throw stones against the tanks, as there have been many children shot. Ok, so the last link doesn’t tell children to throw stones against tanks. But it doesn’t say children shoulnd’t throw stones or petrol bombs at soldiers with guns, who in situations when they are outnumbered and are getting hit with stones, people are trying to set them on fire and sooner or later someone will start shooting. You’re going out of your way to put children in a situation where they are comming under GRAVE risk for their lives. They are attacking soldiers in often rapidly changing situations. Anyway TwistofFate, calm way the fuck down. There’s a reason why I don’t go into Great Debates. I don’t trust people when it comes to debating something they are passionate about, or something emotionally charged. People will distort facts and outright LIE to make their point and win converts. If you do more research into human right violations on both sides of the Isreal-Palestine conflict you’ll find more fucked up propaganda than you can point a stick at. Without GETTING OFF YOUR ASS and reading it all for yourself, and they trying to check the information contained in the first batch of sources how do you know you’re not quoting, or getting quoted utter BS from one side trying to influence your opinion? It’s the dumbass parroting of things people hear that I take issue with. If people have an opinion it’s a goddamned certanty that they’ll have information to back it up. For christ’s sake. Look at the shitty quality of information I found. Doesn’t that tell you something?! The best information was a second hand reading of a UN report, which probably was generated by an afteraction report. The PA statement about discouraging children under 16 doesn’t directly say anything. It implies they willingly encourage children 16 and 17 to participate. But does that fall under the child soldier/child shield regulations? Without looking at EVER instances of children acting w/ the authorization of the PA you CAN’T MAKE THAT CALL! The whole situation is so FUCKED up over there, unless we’re going to go there and visit for a while it will be impossible to tell if there is any systamatic use of children either as combatents or as human shields. About ALL that any of the information we gets about that conflict will tell us is that some children are getting killed. If there is an organized decision to use children as a buffer for armed adults when they confront the IDF we don’t know. The level of hate there is high enough that both children and adults will respond to the IDF. Is it a case of the palestinians unable to keep their children away from the conflict or are they sending them out? It all comes down to how you interpret the facts. Why ask for a cite when you can easilly tell there is no clear information on it. Yes, sure there may be some instances of adults using children as a screening force. But how can you tell it’s policy for one of the groups in the area or if it’s a bunch of animals using children to take a bullet from them? You’re asking for a cite on something both sides take all information that goes out and puts their own spin on it demonizing the other side. I take issue with that. Do you understand the difference? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/42 "2002-12-11T17:47:05Z")
> [@](#): > > The PA statement about discouraging children under 16 doesn’t directly say anything. It implies they willingly encourage children 16 and 17 to participate. But does that fall under the child soldier/child shield regulations? Actually, under 16 is a child soldier. from your first cite > [@](#): > > Foreign Ministry legal adviser Alan Baker said the use of children in the violence constitutes no less than a “war crime,” and cites various international conventions to back up his position. Various international treaties, Baker says, set the age of 15 as minimum age for a child to participate in hostilities, whether directly - through combat - or through other means. the way I always understood it to work was this. a claim is made, eviudence supplied, evidence examined and or counter cites supplied. lather, rinse repeat. As you said, you don’t go into GD, but that is how I understand the process of debate to work. According to you, if no evidence is supplied to back up a claim, the burden lies on the reader to prove it right or wrong? > [@](#): > > You’re asking for a cite on something both sides take all information that goes out and puts their own spin on it demonizing the other side. > > I take issue with that. Preferrably I’d like cites from independent sources. They do exist you know. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/43 "2002-12-11T18:01:19Z")
I thought Israel was one of the countries which had 18 as the legal limit for serving in the armed forces? So wouldn’t that take precidence? Local laws over international law? Then again I could be wrong. No according to me: asking for a cite annoys the living crap out of me. As for independent sources… there are too few of them ☹ ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/44 "2002-12-11T18:11:13Z")
Which brings up another problem… Untill I actually read the UN report on the rights of children I always assumed it was anyone under 18 was a child soldier. And considering when I looked it up earlier the first 6 sites all said 18… which I now know is a misquote. 15!? WTF is up with that. A child who is 15 and 1 week old should not be allowed to be conscripted into an army! Sometimes the UN really has it’s head up it’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/45 "2002-12-11T18:13:19Z")
Unless I misread the damn report. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/46 "2002-12-11T18:17:05Z")
CR, its not the UN. the UN see a child as being under the age of 18. Several international treaties recognise the age of consent to make your own decision to fight at 15. so it is possible to be over 15, not be a “child soldier” and still be a child in the eyes of the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clint_in_Wichita)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/47 "2002-12-11T18:37:57Z")
Let’s be clear: When I said “nits make lice”, I meant that Palestinian terrorists were once Palestinian children. If Mommy and Daddy Palestinian don’t want Junior to become a grease spot, stop the terrorist activity & stop making your own neighborhood a battlefield. The Palestinians have never had a legitimate claim to the lands they occupy. I think Israel has shown tremendous restraint in not eliminating all Palestinians in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clint_in_Wichita)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/48 "2002-12-11T18:40:02Z")
BTW, it’s not child murder, it’s collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clint_in_Wichita)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/49 "2002-12-11T18:43:21Z")
People who think they can “kick ass” on the internet crack me up! ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/50 "2002-12-11T18:48:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Clint in Wichita \* > \*\*People who think they can “kick ass” on the internet crack me up! \*\* So you find yourself hilarious too? Its good to have something we can agree on. ---
**Author:** ![Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clint_in_Wichita)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/51 "2002-12-11T18:51:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Six stinking posts, and already I can’t stand him. > > I actually got some coherent posts out of **Chumpsky** , and then [this festering heap of rat droppings](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=145878&pagenumber=4) gets dumped into the thread. > > **Clint** me bucko, killing children is a _bad_ thing. Even if you think the ethnic group their parents belonged to did really, really naughty things. And referring to children as ‘nits’ or ‘lice’ is generally considered having a lot in common with the pus oozing from a syphilitic chancre on a dead sheep’s asshole. > > Not that I am hoping you are tied down and sodomized with a dildo wrapped in razor wire. Heavens, no. Nor do I entertain any fond wishes that you be hung upside down and have jalapeno pepper sauce dripped on the paper cuts on your scrotum. Not at all. > > I’m just saying that a discussion about the Middle East is probably not going to be enhanced by rationalizations about child murder. Not for me at least. Of course, I can only speak on behalf of those who do NOT have unnatural relations with fresh roadkill, so YMMV. > > In brief, welcome to the SDMB, and fuck off. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* You’re so witty and clever! Not _anything_ like most internet nerds! Let me try your method of “message board intimidation”: The doctor who delivered you should’ve turned you around, stuck your head right back into your mother’s ass, and sliced you open from stem to stern with a scalpel. Hmmmm…I seem to be doing something wrong. With practice, maybe I can become as good as you. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clint_in_Wichita)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/52 "2002-12-11T18:59:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*So you find yourself hilarious too? Its good to have something we can agree on. \*\* I don’t pretend that I’m causing someone to quiver in a corner by posting on a message board. Some dildo named Shodan wants to get her panties in a bunch because I detest the terrorists (and future terrorists) that she dearly loves? That’s too bad for her. Her flow must be extra chunky this month. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/53 "2002-12-11T19:06:13Z")
Fred Phelps is from Wichita as well, isn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/54 "2002-12-11T19:36:45Z")
Topeka. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/55 "2002-12-11T19:36:55Z")
**Clint in Wichita** , the first rule on the Straight Dope Message Board is “Don’t be a jerk.” This applies even in the Pit. You’ve started off badly, and frankly I’m not inclined to give you much slack. Tone it down, or find another message board to play on. Lynn For the Straight Dope ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/56 "2002-12-11T20:02:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*CR, its not the UN. the UN see a child as being under the age of 18. > > Several international treaties recognise the age of consent to make your own decision to fight at 15. so it is possible to be over 15, not be a “child soldier” and still be a child in the eyes of the UN. \*\* Arrg, I’ve wasted too much of my day looking up this whole child soldier crap. The human rights watch sights call people under 18 serving in combat child soldiers. I read a UN report about the decision to set 15 as the min age for children in combat… Which discussed the objections to countries who wanted it set at 18… They noted that australia went for 18 when their own laws allow for 17. Which naturally I can’t find again, because it was interesting reading. Arrg whatever. The PA discourages children under 16 from participating. Decide for yourself if you consider them child soldiers. Hrrm we’re way off topic and I don’t care anymore I should go home before my coworkers get me sent to a hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clint_in_Wichita)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/57 "2002-12-11T20:06:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lynn Bodoni \* > \*\ ***Clint in Wichita** , the first rule on the Straight Dope Message Board is “Don’t be a jerk.” This applies even in the Pit. You’ve started off badly, and frankly I’m not inclined to give you much slack. Tone it down, or find another message board to play on. > > Lynn > For the Straight Dope \*\* I used the term “nits make lice” in a discussion about Palestinian children, and “Shodan” started this thread. I’ve seen much worse than “nits make lice” on this message board. If what you can get away with is directly related to how many posts you have, I can deal with it. Just fill me in on the numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/58 "2002-12-11T20:22:25Z")
**Clint** , a bit of friendly advice, you can hold, and express, pretty much any opinion you want to on the SDMB, as long as you are willing to back it up with reasoned debate. One of the key things you _ **can’t** _ do, is go out of your way to piss off the mods, regardless of how many posts you have. There’s a couple of other things you can’t do, like trolling and being a jerk. This qualifies as both. > [@](#): > > \*\*Some dildo named Shodan wants to get her panties in a bunch because I detest the terrorists (and future terrorists) that she dearly loves? That’s too bad for her. Her flow must be extra chunky this month. \*\* Her flow must be extra chunky this month? Please. I know that this is pretty extreme but, well, there is only one conclusion that I can draw. You, sir, are a, a, . . . a turdburglar! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/59 "2002-12-11T20:23:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > \*\* > Fred Phelps is from Wichita as well, isn’t he? > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Topeka. Sorry. \*\* Think how Topeka must feel. :rolleyes: Not that it matters, **Clint** old sock, but I am a guy. Sorry if I am ruining any fantasies for you. I suppose I should refrain from whipping you into a ban-worthy froth, and thus deprive us of your no doubt deeply insightful posts on a variety of world affairs, so if She Who Must Be Obeyed would lock this thread, I would be grateful. Regards, Shodan On preview - Whoo hoo! My first accusation of being a member of the SDMB elite, who get special privileges! ---
**Author:** ![BIG\_DADDY\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@BIG\_DADDY\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BIG_DADDY_1)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780/60 "2002-12-11T20:48:15Z")
Shodan, You really fire up don’t you? As long as the Palestinians attach bombs to their children and use them for shields they are going to get killed period. TS Wrote: > [@](#): > > Some dildo named Shodan wants to get her panties in a bunch because I detest the terrorists (and future terrorists) that she dearly loves? That’s too bad for her. Her flow must be extra chunky this month. Is it really any worse than what Shodan wrote about him? i think not. BIG DADDY Trying to find a common ground. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-that-was-fucking-helpful/141780.md?page=4)