# Now they want to ban the sale of pointed kitchen knives in the UK to reduce knife crime. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606 "2019-10-10T20:32:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/161 "2019-10-16T13:51:44Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Probably because the key part is the ‘society allows’ and the ‘death’ part. You want to see them as different, but from a risk perspective they aren’t. Also, seems that similar solutions ARE what are being proposed in many cases. I.E. you and others want to ban weapons, and banning cigarettes has been the go to choice to get rid of the things in our society. So far, selective banning of when and where you can have a cigarette along with increases in taxes and other limitations are what’s generally used. At some point I won’t be surprised if the numbers work out to a whole sale ban. Hell, kind of surprised that the Europeans haven’t gone that route already, as they are so concerned with the lives of their citizens (and also the costs to their healthcare system), but then many of the countries in Europe are much more lax about restrictions on tobacco than the US (or seemingly the UK now). As I mentioned before, the UK has taken an incremental restriction approach to cigarettes, to the point where they’re only sold over the counter from an opaque cabinet to discourage impulse buying. Marketing is heavily regulated, campaigns and resources to get people to stop smoking are heavily promoted. Admittedly the rise in vaping has done a lot more to reduce the sale of cigarettes than any of the above (and the jury is still out on whether this is an improvement) but _it is being addressed_. Also, the good old days when British-American Tobacco had a bunch of wholly-owned MPs with no consequence have largely gone by the wayside (Ken Clarke, I’m looking at you) which has made it easier to get something done. And of course there’s a lot of pressure from the NHS at all levels to get smoking reduced. You know what isn’t being done? Saying “Welp, people have a right to poison themselves if they want so we shouldn’t do anything. But our thoughts and prayers are with the victims of emphysema and lung cancer.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/162 "2019-10-16T13:52:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > … **Gyrate** , why ? You know you put that thing on repeat in at least 50 brains just now, including mine. Why would you do this ? To get it out of mine, obviously. That’s how it works. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/163 "2019-10-16T14:02:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > As I mentioned before, the UK has taken an incremental restriction approach to cigarettes, to the point where they’re only sold over the counter from an opaque cabinet to discourage impulse buying. Marketing is heavily regulated, campaigns and resources to get people to stop smoking are heavily promoted. Admittedly the rise in vaping has done a lot more to reduce the sale of cigarettes than any of the above (and the jury is still out on whether this is an improvement) but _it is being addressed_. Also, the good old days when British-American Tobacco had a bunch of wholly-owned MPs with no consequence have largely gone by the wayside (Ken Clarke, I’m looking at you) which has made it easier to get something done. And of course there’s a lot of pressure from the NHS at all levels to get smoking reduced. > > You know what isn’t being done? Saying “Welp, people have a right to poison themselves if they want so we shouldn’t do anything. But our thoughts and prayers are with the victims of emphysema and lung cancer.” Ban cigarettes obviously. More people die (at least an order of magnitude more, if not 2) in the UK from cigarettes than knives. I mean, if you are going to go to the trouble to ban pointy knives for, literally, 282 deaths a year, shouldn’t tobacco be completely banned? It causes a lot more deaths. Alcohol as well. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/164 "2019-10-16T14:40:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ban cigarettes obviously. More people die (at least an order of magnitude more, if not 2) in the UK from cigarettes than knives. I mean, if you are going to go to the trouble to ban pointy knives for, literally, 282 deaths a year, shouldn’t tobacco be completely banned? It causes a lot more deaths. Alcohol as well. I don’t recall if you were in line with the “nanny state” comment earlier in the thread, made by **DrDeth**. But it’s absurd to, on the one hand complain about a “nanny state”, while on the other, advocating for banning tobacco and alcohol. Which are all problematic to the health and welfare of individuals, but are not classified as weapons. It’s convenient to role them up into an argument against gun/knife bans but it’s an obvious and contrived distraction, not a salient point. The context in which someone dies is meaningful when that context is due to…wait for it… _a violent fucking crime_. I don’t really care how many times or how many people want to insist that context is irrelevant. They’re wrong. That said, I’m fine with tobacco being a banned substance. Less fine with alcohol being banned. Much less fine with pointy knives being banned. I think the knife ban thing is silly and will never go anywhere. I get that they felt the need to try something to stem the rate of stabbings, but it seems an unreasonable solution. Now, am I ready to call the UK “knife grabbers”? No. Let them try it. If it works, I’ll change my mind. If it doesn’t, I trust they’ll change theirs. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/165 "2019-10-16T14:46:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t recall if you were in line with the “nanny state” comment earlier in the thread, made by **DrDeth**. But it’s absurd to, on the one hand complain about a “nanny state”, while on the other, advocating for banning tobacco and alcohol. Which are all problematic to the health and welfare of individuals, but are not classified as weapons. It’s convenient to role them up into an argument against gun/knife bans but it’s an obvious and contrived distraction, not a salient point. The context in which someone dies is meaningful when that context is due to…wait for it… _a violent fucking crime_. I don’t really care how many times or how many people want to insist that context is irrelevant. They’re wrong. > > That said, I’m fine with tobacco being a banned substance. Less fine with alcohol being banned. Much less fine with pointy knives being banned. I think the knife ban thing is silly and will never go anywhere. I get that they felt the need to try something to stem the rate of stabbings, but it seems an unreasonable solution. Now, am I ready to call the UK “knife grabbers”? No. Let them try it. If it helps, I’ll change my mind. If it doesn’t, I trust they’ll change theirs. Whether I’m for a nanny state or not is irrelevant (FTR, I’m not either…as with most things, I’m sort of in the middle. I can see the need for regulation and restriction, I often don’t agree with out and out bans on things, even very harmful things like drugs, as to me the downside to that is the blackmarket and illegal sales and the associated crime that has a larger impact than the initial issue did). It’s a logical progression. If, indeed, the concept is to actually save lives, then it seems to me you go after things that, you know, cause more death and that society allows, especially since banning is obviously not off the table. In the case of this pointy knife thingy, it’s obviously not…in fact, it seems to be the first step. So, my question is, why knives? If it’s the sheer number of deaths, well…there are plenty of other things allowed in the UK society that cause a lot more deaths, so shouldn’t they be targets first? If not, why not? The answer, of course, is that those other things are more popular (or at least folks will fight a lot harder to keep them than, apparently, pointy knives in the UK) and so society is good with accepting the cost…in lives…to continue to allow them. Which means, this isn’t really about lives lost…it’s about what the public is or isn’t willing to give up. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/166 "2019-10-16T15:11:43Z")
Some interesting data in [Ten charts on the rise of knife crime in England and Wales - BBC News](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42749089) especially the Homicides committed by knife. It only goes to 2017 and 2019 has apparently been higher however the chart fails to take into account incidents per 100,000 since the UK had grown ~17% since 1977. Which would make the early levels of knife related deaths (~155) equivalent to ~180. That falls inline with the values from 2012 to 2016. So if the death rate related to knives was good enough, or within acceptable levels up util ~2015 the focus should be on changes since then. That’s not to say you couldn’t work to reduce levels but that’s a separate question. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/167 "2019-10-16T15:53:24Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Some interesting data in [Ten charts on the rise of knife crime in England and Wales](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42749089) especially the Homicides committed by knife. > > It only goes to 2017 and 2019 has apparently been higher however the chart fails to take into account incidents per 100,000 since the UK had grown ~17% since 1977. Which would make the early levels of knife related deaths (~155) equivalent to ~180. That falls inline with the values from 2012 to 2016. > > So if the death rate related to knives was good enough, or within acceptable levels up util ~2015 the focus should be on changes since then. That’s not to say you couldn’t work to reduce levels but that’s a separate question. From the earlier Guardian article it seems clear that force levels and funding for police have declined in that time period, meaning less police officers in critical areas and less funding for police pro-active activity. Not sure if that’s actually the case or not, as I only skimmed the article, but that’s what they are saying. If so, this should be a fairly easy fix…just bring force levels and funding back up to what’s needed. Also, a lot of this might be just a blip, an anomaly caused, perhaps, but rising uncertainty and anxiety due to stuff like BREXIT and the down turn caused to their economy. More crime and an uptick in violence might be signs of this, which means the uptick is a symptom, and going after pointy knives isn’t the solution as you aren’t addressing the root cause of the issue, merely doing some stuff for PR by addressing a symptom. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/168 "2019-10-16T16:41:38Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > … > And, as already noted, work on reducing the harms caused by cigarettes (and air pollution in general, including vehicle emissions) is ongoing. The UK isn’t ignoring one threat to deal with a different one, so your point is both irrelevant and invalid. > > You keep making this argument. You have yet to make it convincingly, particularly as you 1) keep excluding relevant factors from your argument and 2) keep concluding that “therefore we shouldn’t have any gun control laws” despite not applying this logic to any other regulation. An equally valid conclusion is “gun control doesn’t work because its drafting and implementation are continuously undermined by those with a personal agenda, most notably the NRA”. Have they banned tobacco? No, then the point is valid. What relevant factors? I didnt say that “therefore we shouldn’t have any gun control laws” at any point in time. I can be against the stupid double-nickle speed limit laws and still be Ok with speed limits in general. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/169 "2019-10-16T16:43:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t recall if you were in line with the “nanny state” comment earlier in the thread, made by **DrDeth**. … which was? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/170 "2019-10-16T17:51:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > which was? [Post #82](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21912798&postcount=82) Not sure why you needed me to find it for you, but I’m happy to help. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/171 "2019-10-16T17:58:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > [Post #82](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21912798&postcount=82) > > Not sure why you needed me to find it for you, but I’m happy to help. So, you didnt even read it, eh? “ **If** you are gonna have a nanny state that really wants to save it’s citizens,…” I didnt accuse them of having one. I said **IF** they were gonna have one that banned acetaminophen and pointed knives (they have done neither) then they also need to ban smoking. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/172 "2019-10-16T18:55:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, you didnt even read it, eh? “ **If** you are gonna have a nanny state that really wants to save it’s citizens,…” I didnt accuse them of having one. I said **IF** they were gonna have one that banned acetaminophen and pointed knives (they have done neither) then they also need to ban smoking. No. Wrong emphasis. “If **you** are gonna have a nanny state…” Because YOU were the first to bring up “nanny state” as a term for whatever measures are being taken to reduce knife assaults in the UK. I did a search. Nobody brought up the characterization until you dropped it into post #82. So clearly this is your assessment. No _ifs_ about it. Furthermore, if **you** are against nanny states, why even bring up tobacco prohibitions as an argument? Even folks who are pro this pointy knife restriction legislation aren’t arguing draconian tobacco restrictions. Because, I assume, they understand the differences between things that are different, and appreciate context and consistency of argument. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/173 "2019-10-16T19:13:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > No. Wrong emphasis. > > “If **you** are gonna have a nanny state…” > > Because YOU were the first to bring up “nanny state” as a term for whatever measures are being taken to reduce knife assaults in the UK. I did a search. Nobody brought up the characterization until you dropped it into post #82. So clearly this is your assessment. No _ifs_ about it. > > Furthermore, if **you** are against nanny states, why even bring up tobacco prohibitions as an argument? Even folks who are pro this pointy knife restriction legislation aren’t arguing draconian tobacco restrictions. Because, I assume, they understand the differences between things that are different, and appreciate context and consistency of argument. Things that are different? So, it’s not about lives lost, it’s about societies acceptance of things that it wants, regardless of the cost in lives verse intolerance in lives lost because they are willing to give them up. Yes, you are correct…it really is about the differences between things, and lives have nothing to do with it. Glad we got that straight then. Being for or against a nanny state really has nothing to do with anything. And the number of lives has nothing to do with it either. It’s really about societies tolerance or intolerance for something, and it’s willingness or unwillingness to pay the price in lives lost to have whatever it is. In the case of this thread, it’s about the UK’s willingness to put up with orders of magnitude more deaths from some things (alcohol and tobacco to name just two) because their society wants them, while it’s intolerance for a relatively small number of deaths verse the willingness to allow pointy knives. It doesn’t have to make sense to an outsider…just to their own people, who are the ones who live there and vote for what they do or don’t want and what they do or don’t tolerate. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/174 "2019-10-16T19:46:51Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Things that are different? So, it’s not about lives lost, it’s about societies acceptance of things that it wants, regardless of the cost in lives verse intolerance in lives lost because they are willing to give them up. Yes, you are correct…it really is about the differences between things, and lives have nothing to do with it. > > Glad we got that straight then. Being for or against a nanny state really has nothing to do with anything. And the number of lives has nothing to do with it either. It’s really about societies tolerance or intolerance for something, and it’s willingness or unwillingness to pay the price in lives lost to have whatever it is. In the case of this thread, it’s about the UK’s willingness to put up with orders of magnitude more deaths from some things (alcohol and tobacco to name just two) because their society wants them, while it’s intolerance for a relatively small number of deaths verse the willingness to allow pointy knives. It doesn’t have to make sense to an outsider…just to their own people, who are the ones who live there and vote for what they do or don’t want and what they do or don’t tolerate. I think you are mostly right. But would you agree that if the society were made of rational agents who preferred living more than their preference for things like smokes and pointed knives, it would make sense to ban the pointed knives? That seems to be the primary mental holdup people have in this thread. They dispute whether pointed knives are even a danger at all, or they dispute the very idea of banning something that is being misused, given any determined individual with enough resources can still get the banned item. Hence, “knives don’t kill people, people do”. We could have a society where anti vehicle high explosive rocket launchers are sold in sporting good stores with just a quick background check. And where people were getting killed all the time by misused rocket launchers. “The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a rocket launcher is a good guy with a rocket launcher”. And you would be arguing that since rocket launcher deaths are just a few hundred a year we should not ban them without banning cigarettes first. As if the two were somehow mutually exclusive. Or even **related**. What you are doing is “whataboutism”. It doesn’t _matter_ what the policy is on smoking. We can talk about banning smokes in the next thread… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/175 "2019-10-16T20:00:40Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I think you are mostly right. But would you agree that if the society were made of rational agents who preferred living more than their preference for things like smokes and pointed knives, it would make sense to ban the pointed knives? Rational to who though? I’d say that the answer is my standard weasel…it depends. There is no yardstick for what is or isn’t ‘rational’. I know many on this board feel there is, which is why they try and compare countries on vertical issues, but ‘rational’ really is an internal thing. What’s ‘rational’ for one country and it’s citizens may not be, and often isn’t for another’s. Sure, there are some limits. It’s not rational to, say, kill 1/4 of your educated population and send the rest to work in the fields, despite that seeming ‘rational’ to the elite in Cambodia in the 70’s. But on this, to ME it wouldn’t be rational to ban pointy knives, even if by some chance that saved those 282 people, because the cost to benefit isn’t there. But to the folks who actually live there, sure…it may seem perfectly rational to do so. > [@](#): > > That seems to be the primary mental holdup people have in this thread. They dispute whether pointed knives are even a danger at all, or they dispute the very idea of banning something that is being misused, given any determined individual with enough resources can still get the banned item. Hence, “knives don’t kill people, people do”. We could have a society where anti vehicle high explosive rocket launchers are sold in sporting good stores with just a quick background check. I’m not disputing that pointy knives can and are dangerous. Lots of things are dangerous. It’s about a cost to benefit, and also about the acceptance of a population for weighing that cost (in lives or in other measures) to the (perceived) benefit. To ME that calculation is obvious…the cost is a lot higher than the potential, very small benefit. If there even is one at all, which I have my doubts. Certainly as a society they have to weigh the cost to benefit in many things they allow. Do we allow the speed limit to go from 45 to 55…or to 70 or higher? Knowing that every mile per hour more is going to have some cost in lives. Do we allow our citizens to use alcohol, knowing, with certainty, that people will die…both people who drink and even folks who don’t but are affected by those who do? In the case of the OP, do we allow the utility of having knives with points verse the cost in lives and the cost in I suppose crime? > [@](#): > > And you would be arguing that since rocket launcher deaths are just a few hundred a year we should not ban them without banning cigarettes first. As if the two were somehow mutually exclusive. Well, I’d question the utility of rocket launchers. But, yes, I’d be doing the same sorts of risk analysis. And factoring in not just the known risks (i.e. how many people die due to rocket launchers each year? Is banning them worth the cost? How does this relate to other things society allows? Is it more risky, is the cost in lives more or less or equivalent? Etc) but the unknown risks, or the conceived risks verse realized risks. For instance, in the case of a rocket launcher, you could conceive of someone using that to bring down a commercial air craft. What is the probability of that? What would the impact be? What, if any, are the mitigation strategies for that? Is the cost to society in banning or heavily restricting that item worth the benefit in both realized lower risk and potential lower risk? In the case of the rocket launcher I’d have to say that, off the top of my head, banning them would be the way to go, even though the deaths due to rocket launcher are low (I assume that it’s near zero), because, for one, it’s a very niche item (not everyone is going to want to have one, and they are almost certainly pretty expensive) that will affect very few, and very few would complain about them being banned, but that the unknown or theoretical risks are very high…high enough to warrant society putting a lid on them. This is similar to the ‘why can’t everyone have an atomic bomb’ thing, IMHO. Anyway, that’s my take FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/176 "2019-10-16T20:13:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Things that are different? So, it’s not about lives lost, it’s about societies acceptance of things that it wants, regardless of the cost in lives verse intolerance in lives lost because they are willing to give them up. Yes, you are correct…it really is about the differences between things, and lives have nothing to do with it. > > Glad we got that straight then. Being for or against a nanny state really has nothing to do with anything. And the number of lives has nothing to do with it either. It’s really about societies tolerance or intolerance for something, and it’s willingness or unwillingness to pay the price in lives lost to have whatever it is. In the case of this thread, it’s about the UK’s willingness to put up with orders of magnitude more deaths from some things (alcohol and tobacco to name just two) because their society wants them, while it’s intolerance for a relatively small number of deaths verse the willingness to allow pointy knives. It doesn’t have to make sense to an outsider…just to their own people, who are the ones who live there and vote for what they do or don’t want and what they do or don’t tolerate. I think that’s a consistent point of view. Societies tolerate certain things until they decide they no longer wish to tolerate those things. But not all the things, all at the same time, for the same reasons. That’s probably how human sacrifices fell out of fashion, but animal sacrifices carried on for a while longer. Where’s the gotcha in that? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/177 "2019-10-16T20:16:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think that’s a consistent point of view. Societies tolerate certain things until they decide they no longer wish to tolerate those things. But not all the things, all at the same time, for the same reasons. That’s probably how human sacrifices fell out of fashion, but animal sacrifices carried on for a while longer. > > Where’s the gotcha in that? There isn’t a gotcha. And you have it exactly correct. Societies change over time, and things that seem ‘rational’ today probably won’t be down the road…almost certainly won’t, in fact. And vice versa. That’s why my actual stance to the OP is, it’s their monkey and their circus, so whatever they feel is right is what they should do. As an outsider it seems strange to me, and I don’t agree, but I don’t vote or pay taxes there so my opinion is of militantly no concern and shouldn’t be to the folks who do. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/178 "2019-10-16T20:50:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > There isn’t a gotcha. And you have it exactly correct. Societies change over time, and things that seem ‘rational’ today probably won’t be down the road…almost certainly won’t, in fact. And vice versa. That’s why my actual stance to the OP is, it’s their monkey and their circus, so whatever they feel is right is what they should do. As an outsider it seems strange to me, and I don’t agree, but I don’t vote or pay taxes there so my opinion is of militantly no concern and shouldn’t be to the folks who do. Great. And while we were busy keeping our noses out of their business, did they finally legislate the points off their knives, or was it just an idea some floated and will soon be dismissed? It seems that the latter is the most likely outcome. But the “nanny state” label has already been issued, regardless, and immediately linked to the dire ‘we told you so!’ predictions of gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/179 "2019-10-16T20:54:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And while we were busy keeping our noses out of their business, did they finally legislate the points off their knives, or was it just an idea some floated and will soon be dismissed? No legislation whatsoever, and none in prospect, as some of the actual UK posters on the thread may have mentioned several times. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606/180 "2019-10-16T20:54:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Great. And while we were busy keeping our noses out of their business, did they finally legislate the points off their knives, or was it just an idea some floated and will soon be dismissed? It seems that the latter is the most likely outcome. But the “nanny state” label has already been issued, regardless, and immediately linked to the dire ‘we told you so!’ predictions of gun control. Well, from [here](https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives): > [@](#): > > Basic laws on knives > It’s illegal to: > > sell a knife to anyone under 18, unless it has a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62 cm) or less > carry a knife in public without good reason, unless it has a folding blade with a cutting edge 3 inches long or less > carry, buy or sell any type of banned knife > use any knife in a threatening way (even a legal knife) > Scotland > In Scotland, 16 to 18 year olds are allowed to buy cutlery and kitchen knives. > > Lock knives > Lock knives are not classed as folding knives and are illegal to carry in public without good reason. Lock knives: > > have blades that can be locked and refolded only by pressing a button > can include multi-tool knives - tools that also contain other devices such as a screwdriver or can opener > Banned knives and weapons > It is illegal to bring into the UK, sell, hire, lend or give anyone the following: > > butterfly knives (also known as ‘balisongs’) - a blade hidden inside a handle that splits in the middle > disguised knives - a blade or sharp point hidden inside what looks like everyday objects such as a buckle, phone, brush or lipstick > flick knives (also known as ‘switchblades’ or ‘automatic knives’) - a blade hidden inside a handle which shoots out when a button is pressed > gravity knives > stealth knives - a knife or spike not made from metal (except when used at home, for food or a toy) > zombie knives - a knife with a cutting edge, a serrated edge and images or words suggesting it is used for violence > swords, including samurai swords - a curved blade over 50cm (with some exceptions, such as antiques and swords made to traditional methods before 1954) > sword-sticks - a hollow walking stick or cane containing a blade > push daggers > blowpipes (‘blow gun’) > telescopic truncheons - extend automatically by pressing button or spring in the handle > batons - straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheons > hollow kubotans - a cylinder-shaped keychain holding spikes > shurikens (also known as ‘shaken’, ‘death stars’ or ‘throwing stars’) > kusari-gama - a sickle attached to a rope, cord or wire > kyoketsu-shoge - a hook-knife attached to a rope, cord or wire > kusari (or ‘manrikigusari’) - a weight attached to a rope, cord, wire > hand or foot-claws > knuckledusters > Contact your local police to check if a knife or weapon is illegal. A lot of these are pretty vague (some of them seem to be made up), so that last bit of advice is probably the best one…check with local police to see if what you have is illegal, or if they think it might be illegal. No mention of the pointy part though. ETA: Oh, and this part: > [@](#): > > The maximum penalty for an adult carrying a knife is 4 years in prison and an unlimited fine. You’ll get a prison sentence if you’re convicted of carrying a knife more than once. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-they-want-to-ban-the-sale-of-pointed-kitchen-knives-in-the-uk-to-reduce-knife-crime/841606.md?page=10)