# Now Trump has an agenda **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2017, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334 "2017-08-22T05:30:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/41 "2017-08-23T07:03:52Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Serious question, how do we nation build in Afghanistan? > > What about Iraq? > > Do we really know how to nation build? These nations aren’t Germany or Japan post ww2. Oh, George W. Bush and his esteemed surrogates like Paul Bremer showed us how to nation-build! First you destroy (_literally_: “Freedom is messy!”) existing infrastructure and culture. Then you impose an Ayn Randian wet dream on the country – privatize everything. Staff the “Iraqi” government with right-wing Republicans barely out of their teens who speak no Arabic. Hold “elections” and — even when major groups boycott the process — send newsmen to take photos of purple fingers and prattle about how America brought democracy to the heathens. Oh, when it’s time to hire contractors to rebuild destroyed infrastructure do NOT hire any of the millions of unemployed Iraqis; it’s time to reward the U.S.A. for its altruistic sacrifice: all the opportunity has to go to American companies and to fellow kleptocrats in the Gulf. But that was under Bush-43, widely regarded as a poor President. Since Trump is the greatest and most selfless President ever (with the possible exception of Abe Lincoln – _“Did you know Abe was a Republican? Not many do!”_) I’m surprised he doesn’t want to try nation building — it would be the greatest nation-building ever! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/42 "2017-08-23T07:06:20Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > That is a lot to quote in one post, but it isn’t every day that Donald Trump, POTUS, delivers such a coherent and content-packed speech. Are you being ironic? I really can’t tell. If you are, then yes, you got me. If you’re not being ironic and you really think this speech is “content-packed” then where is the content you’re referring to? It’s ninety percent feel-good fluff and ten percent “This is a list of things I’d like to see happen.” What’s missing is any ideas on how the United States is going to make any of those things happen. It’s not Trump just invented the idea that terrorism is bad and we should put an end to it. Saying that isn’t content. Content is saying what methods you’re going to use to put an end to terrorism. And Trump didn’t have any ideas on that. At least no ideas that haven’t already been tried. Same thing with his idea that Afghanistan should become a better place. Okay, that’s a good idea. What’s going to be done to make Afghanistan a better place? Keep in mind, Trump explicitly disavowed “nation building”. So apparently we’re going to stand by and watch. And hope that somehow Afghanistan becomes a better place. And the disavowal of any time tables for withdrawal. Granted, our announced withdrawal date probably wasn’t going to win the war. But at least it was going to end American involvement in the war. Now, the war’s still not going to be won but we’ll get to keep fighting in it. Or will we? After talking about how he won’t withdraw, Trump then talks about how he might withdraw if Afghanistan doesn’t do its part. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/43 "2017-08-23T07:56:36Z")
Which is it, exactly? That no one has controlled Afghanistan since Alexander the Great, or that he didn’t either? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/44 "2017-08-23T08:08:17Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Clear and/or answers: > > [QUOTE=Trump] > … STUFF… [/QUOTE] He’s looking to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/45 "2017-08-23T08:10:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Which is it, exactly? That no one has controlled Afghanistan since Alexander the Great, or that he didn’t either? It’s almost as if the past 16 years have been a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/46 "2017-08-23T13:35:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What’s going to be done to make Afghanistan a better place? Keep in mind, Trump explicitly disavowed “nation building”. So apparently we’re going to stand by and watch. And hope that somehow Afghanistan becomes a better place. He can’t tell us that because then our enemies would know what we are going to do. _facepalm_ I’m standing by my prediction: we will be putting in place a pro-Putin dictatorship to match the one we have here. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/47 "2017-08-23T16:11:03Z")
We could do that. We could install a legislature to write a Constitution that would grant absolute political power to Ahmed Karzai. Or Jared Kushner. Or you. Or me. Wouldn’t mean shit to a tree. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/48 "2017-08-23T17:51:30Z")
We removed one dictator from power in Iraq. So we must install another dictator to power in Afghanistan. That way we shall restore balance to the Force. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/49 "2017-08-23T19:29:33Z")
I’m watching Episode 12 of _House of Cards_ right now and see Frank Underwood saying much the same thing I’ve been saying since the start of the Fake News era: _Welcome to the Death of the Age of Reason. There is no Right or Wrong. Not anymore._ ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/50 "2017-08-23T19:44:37Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Better than Kipling > > When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier. More Kipling: > [@](#): > > And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, > And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/51 "2017-08-23T20:22:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think this is likely. Most generals are actually pretty realistic when it comes to combat. Usually a lot more so than the politicians who are setting the policy. Most generals can spot an unwinnable war long before the politicians will admit it. And when they see one, they want to get out. Yes, but generals, like anyone, can be blind to reality once they are themselves involved in the situation. I guess I don’t see the end game here. We’ve been in Afghan for 17 years now with no end in sight. What is ‘victory’? Maybe the generals said it and I missed it. I get distracted easily. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/52 "2017-08-23T20:38:28Z")
[QUOTE=AK84] Dear God, someone save these people from themselves. [/QUOTE] Uh…who are you talking to here? > [@](#): > > ou heard of the Hindu Kush? The words mean “Hindu Killer”. Afghans have a long and vircereal hatered of Hindus. You know whats their biggest insult for Pakistanis? Calling them Hindu Converts. And India, is currently being run by a Hindu nationalists, who have banned cow slaughter, one of whose most prominient leaders has led forced converdsations and calls for dead muslim women corpses to be raped. Modi himself before he became PM was banned from entering the US for 10 years, for organizing the anti-muslim riots in Gujarat… That’s nice and all, but…well, wtf does this have to do with anything I said? Or…well, have to do with anything? > [@](#): > > Add ancient hatreds and current headlines and you have just given the militants in Afghanistan a great rallying cry “the Americans want to put us under the thumb of crazy Hindus”. Plus made India and Indians a taregt A large country with a poor and diasffected muslim population. Jeez what can go wrong. . > > Also, you have made Pakistan very happy. You think the prospective that Taliban and India (both of whom they hate like poison) fighting is going to make the ISI/Army/establishment/whatever entity Americans are blaming for their failures now; upset? They probably are having a party. Again…what the hell are you talking about? What’s this got to do with anything in this thread, anything I wrote or, well, anything? If you want to cop to heavy drug use at this point, I’m good with that…I can totally sympathize. I’ll only caution you that heavy use of drugs might not make the Pakistani’s happy, for whatever that’s worth. > [@](#): > > Pakistan has gone out of its way make sure that the Taliban don’t attack Indian workers, and assets in Afghanistan (since Pakistan does not want two hot fronts) and India has kept a low profile for the same reason, being annoyance to Pakistan, not a threat on the Western border. Now that genius McMaster has decied to pressure India into coming out openly. Making India a direct target because I dunno; “strategic ally” or some such nonsense. Kissinger was right, the worst thing you can be is an American ally. Well, I don’t know…what does Alex Jones think? I mean, he’s got to have something to say about India coming out…it’s probably linked to gay frogs or something like that. Next time you want to just fly off the handle and talk to yourself like this leave me out of it, if you would. But…well, as always, thanks for the input! _backs away_ Have a nice day… ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/53 "2017-08-23T21:02:36Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > That is a lot to quote in one post, but it isn’t every day that Donald Trump, POTUS, delivers such a coherent and content-packed speech. The [Daily Show](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIYa94IBWbY) had a nice piece with clips of his speech and clips of Obama saying the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/54 "2017-08-23T21:12:59Z")
The evidence is that Pakistan, like several other Middle Eastern countries, has made a tacit deal with terrorists. In exchange for the government not seriously fighting the terrorists, the terrorists agree not to target the government. Does anyone really believe Osama bin Laden could have lived for five years so openly in a safehouse in Pakistan if the Pakistani government had really been trying to capture him? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/55 "2017-08-23T22:04:45Z")
Pakistan is South Asia. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/56 "2017-08-24T01:30:44Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Pakistan is South Asia. The British found it to be so in the nineteenth century. Kyber Pass and all that. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/57 "2017-08-24T02:15:18Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > The [Daily Show](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIYa94IBWbY) had a nice piece with clips of his speech and clips of Obama saying the same thing. Exactly. He continues the same thing but then puts on a rhetorical dog-and-pony show to present it as some kind of new, strong stance. Everything he does is just an act for his base. ---
**Author:** ![Dioptre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/278dde/32.png) [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/58 "2017-08-24T03:22:22Z")
Even if Trump’s speech is taken at face value, it’s a perfect example of why a country needs political leaders who BOTH provide political direction for the military AND listen to the military about what is realistic. Trump is letting the military decide for themselves a well-defined military goal, that has no long term political objective attached. “Find terrorist, kill terrorist. Don’t fret about where the terrorist are coming from, or what will take their place.” It’s the sort of military goal that could have pragmatic political sense, except that “terrorist” is a political label. You’ve got to have political goals before you can say who the people you want to find and kill are. Is someone who opposes the Afghan government a terrorist? Is someone training to fight against Assad a terrorist? What about a pro-Pakistan government but non-official militia? All of these are designations in pursuit of establishing or propping up particular governments - nation building. If the US forces are only going to find and attack people directly plotting attacks against US soil, they’re not going to be very busy at all. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/59 "2017-08-24T14:02:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you being ironic? I really can’t tell. If you are, then yes, you got me. That post and your reply perfectly encapsulate 2017 for me. I can’t tell who is actually serious in anything they say at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334/60 "2017-08-24T14:19:34Z")
Sorry I take so long to respond sometimes- gawd I get busy. I was serious. A strategic alliance with a country of a billion people is substantial and has long range consequences. So is the announcement to stay and continue fighting the Taliban- I think many hoped we would leave. And rooting out terrorists in Pakistan? Could be a whole new war, with a nuclear power no less. To say that we want an outcome worthy of the sacrifices of our service personnel is, logically, a sunk cost fallacy, yes, but it is also a resonant appeal to pathos and ethos. Didn’t Vietnam burn all the worse because the whole thing, in the end, might as well have been for nothing? Let the Taliban over run Afghanistan and we"ve seen this movie. Speaking of avoiding historical errors, if the plan is to expand wars while cutting taxes on the wealthy, then it is fail, Fail, FAIL! :mad: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-trump-has-an-agenda/794334.md?page=4)