# Now with more Russian hacking (leaked NSA document) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 5, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220 "2017-06-05T22:11:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/42 "2017-06-06T23:23:33Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Agreed. Had HRC pulled out a win, you can rest assured that Team Trump would have been bellowing non-stop and at a high volume about how the whole thing was “RIGGED”. (\*They were already flying that flag before / and after / unexpectedly winning.) They would have demanded investigations, and a Republican congress would have eagerly complied. Eventually the NSA report would have surfaced, and they would have gleefully danced around shouting “SEE! SEE! RIGGED!” Just as has happened with Team Hillary’s reaction to the Trump win, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![quimper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7c8e57/32.png) [@quimper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quimper)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/43 "2017-06-07T00:28:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Another scenario that fits is that we see the results of a tentative effort to gain more information about a prospective action that never actually “jelled”. Perhaps the success of the propaganda campaign to split any union of Bernie/Hillary made that less interesting? > > Hacking, sure, but what’s their plan? Russians don’t take a data dump, son, without a plan. They were after the e-poll books containing voter registrations and voter lists which they then cross referenced with the [data in Project Alamo](https://medium.com/startup-grind/how-the-trump-campaign-built-an-identity-database-and-used-facebook-ads-to-win-the-election-4ff7d24269ac). Being able to specifically target a former voter’s Facebook feed with a flood of negative ads in the run-up to the election could have been enough to tip the balance. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/44 "2017-06-07T01:02:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That’s a pretty interesting document at that link; I had fun poking around it. > > One thing I noticed that was 1 in every 6 Republicans also think that “Russia tampered with vote tallies in order to get Donald Trump elected President”. I noticed that too. It rather amazed me. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/45 "2017-06-07T13:34:18Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > FFS, just count paper every few years. 'Cause that worked really well in Florida during the 2000 Bush/Gore election, amirite? Hanging chads, fat chads, dimpled chads, pregnant chads, [people with magnifying glasses](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.washtimes.com.s3.amazonaws.com/media/image/2012/09/23/20120923-171949-pic-224799225.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/23/where-are-they-now-the-hanging-chad-guy/&h=1615&w=1298&tbnid=td59M28uLRWL1M:&tbnh=160&tbnw=128&usg=__zwkt-we4Wyc-05KRDSHIFdipWso=&vet=1&docid=bxw4ARZ8S80LrM&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi5gIKQ66vUAhUC5iYKHb-1DZMQ9QEIKDAA) trying to determine the intent of a voter they know nothing about - a real solid system. The thing is, paper is like that everywhere, it just doesn’t show up until the election is really close. There is no tamper-proof election system, period. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/46 "2017-06-07T14:23:17Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > 'Cause that worked really well in Florida during the 2000 Bush/Gore election, amirite? It would have if SCOTUS hadn’t intervened. > [@](#): > > Hanging chads, fat chads, dimpled chads, pregnant chads, [people with magnifying glasses](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.washtimes.com.s3.amazonaws.com/media/image/2012/09/23/20120923-171949-pic-224799225.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/23/where-are-they-now-the-hanging-chad-guy/&h=1615&w=1298&tbnid=td59M28uLRWL1M:&tbnh=160&tbnw=128&usg=__zwkt-we4Wyc-05KRDSHIFdipWso=&vet=1&docid=bxw4ARZ8S80LrM&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi5gIKQ66vUAhUC5iYKHb-1DZMQ9QEIKDAA) trying to determine the intent of a voter they know nothing about - a real solid system. The thing is, paper is like that everywhere, it just doesn’t show up until the election is really close. The “hanging chads”, magnifying glass, etc., were a few incidents exaggerated by the media. > [@](#): > > There is no tamper-proof election system, period. So then we should just accept any crappy system since all possible systems are equally bad? You’re posing a false dilemma. We’re not forced to choose between hanging chads and unauditable black boxes. There are other solutions, and it’s simply not true that all of them are equally bad. Why not find a system that’s better than either of those? Other countries use paper and seem to do just fine. Are we somehow less competent than them? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/47 "2017-06-07T14:31:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I noticed that too. It rather amazed me. Amazingly low or amazingly high? ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/48 "2017-06-07T14:33:52Z")
The report was about voter registration systems which doesn’t have much to do with whether you are voting on paper ballots or not. Almost all precincts do use paper ballots now or the voting machines generate voter verifiable ballot receipts. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/49 "2017-06-07T14:56:41Z")
> [@Folly](#): > > The report was about voter registration systems which doesn’t have much to do with whether you are voting on paper ballots or not. Almost all precincts do use paper ballots now or the voting machines generate voter verifiable ballot receipts. In my precinct we push a bunch of buttons and hope that it recorded correctly. No paper. No receipts. But yeah, that’s not what the report was about. What it was about is just as troubling. You can also change an election outcome by screwing with the registration records. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/50 "2017-06-07T15:19:11Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > In my precinct we push a bunch of buttons and hope that it recorded correctly. No paper. No receipts. > > But yeah, that’s not what the report was about. What it was about is just as troubling. You can also change an election outcome by screwing with the registration records. Yeah, PA is almost uniquely awful in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/51 "2017-06-07T16:28:28Z")
> [@Folly](#): > > Yeah, PA is almost uniquely awful in that respect. I vote in South Carolina, and it doesn’t have paper tallies either when you use the voting machines. And that’s a lot more common in the US than I think you’re thinking. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/52 "2017-06-07T16:34:46Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > 'Cause that worked really well in Florida during the 2000 Bush/Gore election, amirite? Hanging chads … I have no idea what this is. We have a piece/s of paper on which we put crosses, an elderly lady counts them and stacks them in piles, under supervision and in the sight of the candidates > [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > ’ > There is no tamper-proof election system, period. Well, the above will do for me. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/53 "2017-06-07T17:01:17Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I vote in South Carolina, and it doesn’t have paper tallies either when you use the voting machines. And that’s a lot more common in the US than I think you’re thinking. NJ either (just voted yesterday!). You select choices on a paper-covered machine (the paper allows the same machine to be used for different elections, it’s where the candidate names are printed). Then, you press a red button, and that’s it. No paper trail that I know of. Also, my daughter voted for the first time yesterday and she didn’t have to show ID :eek:. The vote volunteer showed her where to sign (right next to her signature on file, in case she wasn’t sure what it should look like), and that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/54 "2017-06-07T17:25:23Z")
We mark ballots which are tallied by computer in Arkansas. There is a paper record to fall back on if there are doubts about the election. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/55 "2017-06-07T18:09:53Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I vote in South Carolina, and it doesn’t have paper tallies either when you use the voting machines. And that’s a lot more common in the US than I think you’re thinking. My language was a little optimistic it appears. According to [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter-verified_paper_audit_trail), there are 5 states with systems that still have no paper trail, although the cite used isn’t great. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/56 "2017-06-08T13:18:18Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > It would have if SCOTUS hadn’t intervened. These issues came up because the vote was incredibly close and Gore requested manual recounts, as was his right. SCOTUS got involved because no one could agree on how to manually tally the paper. Any system works great in a landslide, it’s only when every vote matters that inefficiencies are exposed. > [@davidm](#): > > The “hanging chads”, magnifying glass, etc., were a few incidents exaggerated by the media. Really? According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida) ballots that were not fully punched may well have swung the election Bush’s way: > [@](#): > > USA Today, The Miami Herald, and Knight Ridder commissioned accounting firm BDO Seidman to count undervotes. BDO Seidman’s results, reported in USA Today, show that under the strictest standard, where only a cleanly punched ballot with a fully removed chad was counted, Gore’s margin was three votes.[66] Under the other standards used in the study, Bush’s margin of victory increased as looser standards were used. The standards considered by BDO Seidman were: > > **Lenient standard**. Any alteration in a chad, ranging from a dimple to a full punch, counts as a vote. By this standard, Bush margin: 1,665 votes. > **Palm Beach standard**. A dimple is counted as a vote if other races on the same ballot show dimples as well. By this standard, Bush margin: 884 votes. > **Two-corner standard**. A chad with two or more corners removed is counted as a vote. This is the most common standard in use. By this standard, Bush margin: 363 votes. > **Strict standard**. Only a fully removed chad counts as a vote. By this standard, Gore margin: 3 votes. > [@davidm](#): > > You’re posing a false dilemma. We’re not forced to choose between hanging chads and unauditable black boxes. There are other solutions, and it’s simply not true that all of them are equally bad. Except I never said all were equally bad, and you didn’t propose any option except paper. I merely pointed out issues with all paper systems and that there is no system that is foolproof. It’s a case of “pick your poison”. > [@davidm](#): > > Why not find a system that’s better than either of those? Other countries use paper and seem to do just fine. Are we somehow less competent than them? Again, see the super close election scenario. There are flaws, the only question is whether they have been exposed. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I have no idea what this is. We have a piece/s of paper on which we put crosses, an elderly lady counts them and stacks them in piles, under supervision and in the sight of the candidates > > Well, the above will do for me. Unless the little old lady is a Russian agent proficient in sleight of hand…😛 Seriously, though, election result deadlines would have to be extended in order to implement a fully manual system like that over the entire country. We should not ignore technology, but we must be very careful in implementing it. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/57 "2017-06-08T14:11:05Z")
Sure they would. But you have from Nov to January to count the paper 😉 tbh, todays election in the Uk will be a paper count and we will know by this time tomorrow. Fwiw, the rule in the UK is no more than 2,500 registered voters per polling station. The counts tend to be more centralised. p.s. so far, there’s no sign of Vlad Putin or his cyber troops … ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/58 "2017-06-08T16:50:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Another scenario that fits is that we see the results of a tentative effort to gain more information about a prospective action that never actually “jelled”. Perhaps the success of the propaganda campaign to split any union of Bernie/Hillary made that less interesting? Yeah, Hillary was **that** close to selecting Bernie as Veep, but was suddenly deterred by the evil machinations of Vladimir — and the fact one had to have a billion dollars to enter the selection process. Triangulating Dems: The Voice for the Common Millionaire. > [@](#): > > Hacking, sure, but what’s their plan? Russians don’t take a data dump, son, without a plan. If there’s one thing Russians are known for, it’s steely Germanic efficiency. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/59 "2017-06-08T16:59:58Z")
And, maybe, on Tech v. Paper, Americans have too many damn results to process simultaneously. Sure pick the president and the congresspeople at the same time: leave the other offices till the week after. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/60 "2017-06-08T17:20:44Z")
Must have been so much easier when the population was only 250 million 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220/61 "2018-06-27T00:30:56Z")
Updating this thread: > [@](#): > > Whistleblower Reality Winner entered into a plea deal with the Justice Department on Tuesday, ostensibly putting an end to her case that has seen her held in jail for over a year without trial. Her indictment was the Trump administration’s first prosecution in its crackdown on leaks, which now includes many others. As part of the plea agreement, Winner will consent to serving over five years behind bars. > > Winner stated in federal court today that she pleads guilty to one count of violating Section 793 of the Espionage Act and will agree to a sentence of 63 months in prison and 3 years of supervised release. She was accused by President Donald Trump’s administration of releasing national security information to the media. On June 5, 2017, The Intercept published a story that detailed attempts by alleged Russian hackers to break into state election infrastructure, widely believed to be based on the document Winner plead guilty to releasing. > **[Whistleblower Reality Winner, Charged Under the Espionage Act for Helping to...](https://theintercept.com/2018/06/26/reality-winner-plea-deal/)** > > Reality Winner, who helped inform the public about Russian attempts to hack the U.S. election, plead guilty to Espionage Act charges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-with-more-russian-hacking-leaked-nsa-document/788220.md?page=4)