# NRA to Sue Arizona over Destroying Buyback Guns **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 9, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623 "2013-01-09T13:17:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/421 "2013-01-13T17:20:48Z")
> [@random6x7](#): > > **brazil84** , I’ve tried to reasonably argue with you, but you misrepresent what I say That’s not so. What happens is that you wish you had said something different from what you actually said. Then you confuse your own wishes with reality. i.e. you are weaseling. > [@](#): > > I mean “outrageous” as “I am really surprised that they would do this, and I think it’s beyond stupid” :rolleyes: Enough already. I’m getting exhausted from watching your mental gymnastics. > [@](#): > > Health care is an integral part of “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”. A sawed-off shotgun isn’t, not anymore. And I didn’t say that health care was the only important right, for crying out loud. :shrug: You tried to say some rights were different because they relate to health-care. Now it seems you are trying to weasel out of it. Anyway, I don’t engage with people who weasel, i.e. people who pretend that they said something different from what they actually said. Welcome to my ignore list. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/422 "2013-01-13T17:37:45Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Anyway, I don’t engage with people who weasel, i.e. people who pretend that they said something different from what they actually said. Close. You misunderstand what people say, in a way that either speaks of a mental deficiency or deliberate obtuseness, and incompetently try to box people in to having said the stupid thing you think they’ve said. When they object, you put them on your pretend ignore list that nobody but you thinks is valid. Other than that, it’s a pretty good description of what you do. ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/423 "2013-01-13T20:34:55Z")
Thanks, **Left Hand of Dorkness**. I really love when people try that tactic in a written medium. Does he think that people can’t scroll up? **brazil84** , if you really want to keep guns as a constitutional right in this country, I suggest you stop trying to debate people and instead just give your money to people who are capable of debating the matter rationally. You really aren’t helping your side. ---
**Author:** ![mbetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@mbetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbetter)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/424 "2013-01-13T20:48:35Z")
I love the idea of gun ownership as some kind of moral right. When the first gun was invented, no doubt the first person to see it thought “I have no idea what this contraption is, but it is my natural right as a human being to possess one.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/425 "2013-01-13T21:14:09Z")
> [@mbetter](#): > > I love the idea of gun ownership as some kind of moral right. When the first gun was invented, no doubt the first person to see it thought “I have no idea what this contraption is, but it is my natural right as a human being to possess one.” I would guess that the idea that owning weapons was a moral right pre-dates the invention of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/426 "2013-01-13T21:28:10Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I would guess that the idea that owning weapons was a moral right pre-dates the invention of firearms. I would guess you’re wrong, that it’s a remarkably recent idea. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/427 "2013-01-13T22:26:54Z")
> [@mbetter](#): > > I love the idea of gun ownership as some kind of moral right. When the first gun was invented, no doubt the first person to see it thought “I have no idea what this contraption is, but it is my natural right as a human being to possess one.” The moral right is to “effective self-defense”. It’s conception as a moral right probably actually significantly antedates the invention of firearms, and it’s only conflated with firearms because firearms have been the best tool for that since the conception of “rights” as something a majority of the citizenry has. Hell, why do you THINK anyone with enough social rank to do so was perpetually carrying a sword in feudal times? THEY believed they had a moral right to defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/428 "2013-01-14T00:54:38Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Hell, why do you THINK anyone with enough social rank to do so was perpetually carrying a sword in feudal times? THEY believed they had a moral right to defend themselves. Actually, I DON’T think anyone with enough social rank to do so was perpetually carrying a sword in feudal times, and I’d be interested in seeing a cite to the contrary that doesn’t feature Excalibur. I do think that their society was structured in a very different way from ours, and often the people carrying swords were doing so because they were the law. And in 18th century France and Italy (I think; it’s been awhile since I’ve read about the golden age of dueling), swords weren’t common because they were held to be a prerequisite to self-defense; rather, young noble assholes were often above the law, and wore them in the same way that cowboys in Kansas wore them in 1870, looking for trouble. Instead, we find that the weaker the law enforcement is in an area, the more people want to carry weapons, and also the more preemptive violence there is in those areas. There’s a reason why cowboys carried guns on their hips out on the range, but once they came into a town like Dodge with actual law enforcement, they were required to surrender their guns until they left town. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/429 "2013-01-14T13:57:39Z")
I heard David Keene, president of the NRA, on Public Radio Friday night. He explicitly brought up the gun buybacks in other countries being made mandatory. He didn’t have to be prompted to do this, so I think I was right in suggesting that this is at the root of the NRA’s sudden vocal opposition to destroying guns purchased through buybacks, as I stated on the first page (Post #13). He didn’t mention anything about wasting taxpayer money. > [@](#): > > For example, both Sen. Feinstein of California, and Gov. Cuomo of New York, have suggested what they call a forced buyback. In other words, if they know that you have a gun - and this has happened in other countries - you can be required to turn it in and be sold, you know, for a hundred bucks or 50 bucks, back to the government. [http://www.npr.org/2013/01/11/169172198/nra-head-registry-of-gun-owners-would-be-very-dangerous](http://www.npr.org/2013/01/11/169172198/nra-head-registry-of-gun-owners-would-be-very-dangerous) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/430 "2013-01-14T19:32:23Z")
That’s actually doubly insulting, when they make buyback offers at a fraction of the actual worth of the item. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/431 "2013-01-14T19:37:42Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > That’s actually doubly insulting, when they make buyback offers at a fraction of the actual worth of the item. Do you understand what the point of the offer is? It’s not compensation, it’s appreciation. When you give blood at Red Cross, do you think a cookie is fair market value for your blood? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/432 "2013-01-14T19:50:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do you understand what the point of the offer is? It’s not compensation, it’s appreciation. When you give blood at Red Cross, do you think a cookie is fair market value for your blood? If that were true, the NRA’s argument that it is abandonment holds more water. Buybacks are truly buying the firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/433 "2013-01-14T20:26:30Z")
> [@bup](#): > > If that were true, the NRA’s argument that it is abandonment holds more water. Buybacks are truly buying the firearms. How many pints of blood are abandoned at the Red Cross every year? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/434 "2013-01-14T22:48:31Z")
That’s true. To reasonable people, donation, sale and abandonment are three different things. But I think the money given for the guns is a better airtight argument that the guns weren’t abandoned. I bet the previous owners got receipts, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/435 "2013-01-15T21:34:35Z")
> [@bup](#): > > That’s true. To reasonable people, donation, sale and abandonment are three different things. > > But I think the money given for the guns is a better airtight argument that the guns weren’t abandoned. I bet the previous owners got receipts, for instance. Fair enough. It’s somewhere between a donation and a sale, it seems to me: the value isn’t nearly high enough for it to be a real sale, but you’re also getting something for your turned in gun, and I suspect that the absence of a 501(c)(3) means that the “donation” isn’t tax exempt or anything. Still, it seems likely to me that the low value offered per gun means that nobody is feeling compelled to turn their gun in: if they’re that desperate for money, they could probably get $100 easy just by selling their gun online, and surely pawn shops offer more than $20 a gun, right? (I have no idea what pawn shops offer, so maybe I’m wrong). Folks who choose to give their guns to the cops in exchange for $20 are motivated to do so by something other than cash on the barrel. It’s worth figuring out what that motivation is, and to the extent reasonable, respecting that motivation. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/436 "2013-01-15T21:46:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Still, it seems likely to me that the low value offered per gun means that nobody is feeling compelled to turn their gun in: if they’re that desperate for money, they could probably get $100 easy just by selling their gun online, and surely pawn shops offer more than $20 a gun, right? (I have no idea what pawn shops offer, so maybe I’m wrong). > > Folks who choose to give their guns to the cops in exchange for $20 are motivated to do so by something other than cash on the barrel. Unless the gun in question is a complete piece of crap. One criticism I’ve heard leveled against gun buyback programs in the past is that a disproportionate number of the guns collected are very old and in poor repair and essentially useless, so the programs really don’t do much to actually get guns off the street. (I don’t know how much truth there is to that criticism, though.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/437 "2013-01-16T01:21:08Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Unless the gun in question is a complete piece of crap. In which case, really what’s happening IS an abandonment. So a suggested compromise: guns worth more than $20 get melted down, as their previous owners obviously intended to happen (since otherwise they would’ve sold them for more). The complete pieces of crap guns get auctioned off, as the NRA desires. Everyone wins! ---
**Author:** ![Anduinel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Anduinel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduinel)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/438 "2013-01-16T10:31:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Still, it seems likely to me that the low value offered per gun means that nobody is feeling compelled to turn their gun in: if they’re that desperate for money, they could probably get $100 easy just by selling their gun online, and surely pawn shops offer more than $20 a gun, right? (I have no idea what pawn shops offer, so maybe I’m wrong). > > Folks who choose to give their guns to the cops in exchange for $20 are motivated to do so by something other than cash on the barrel. It’s worth figuring out what that motivation is, and to the extent reasonable, respecting that motivation. From the third article linked: > [@](#): > > At the gun buyback, gun-rights advocates held signs reading “Cash For Guns” and “Pay Double for Your Guns.” As cars pulled into the parking lot, they asked drivers if they wanted to sell their guns privately rather than turn them in. There were few takers. > > Doug Deahn couldn’t understand it: “Can’t figure they’d rather line up and give them away. Can’t figure that out.” That article is saying the value of the grocery gift cards was $50, so people were presumably turning down the counter-offers of $100 per gun. Granted, it probably doesn’t mean that much, given the circumstances – being iffy about selling your gun to a random dude who approaches you in a parking lot is probably more common sense than a political statement. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/439 "2013-01-16T12:59:14Z")
I wonder what would happen if _I_ opened up a tailgate gun store in the parking lot of a business, without their permission, and offered to buy guns from passers-by? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623/440 "2013-01-16T18:26:22Z")
Look, we’re all dancing around the real problem with this NRA lawsuit: It is one thing to frame the issue in terms of “rights” or “liberty,” but now the NRA’s attitude seems to be that America **should have** a heavily-armed citizenry and anything that makes it less-armed is bad. That is like Libertarians proclaiming that cocaine and heroin are **good** for you, it shatters the credibility of their more defensible arguments for decriminalization. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nra-to-sue-arizona-over-destroying-buyback-guns/646623.md?page=23)