# NSA considering an amnesty for Edward Snowden ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401 "2013-12-15T19:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/181 "2013-12-18T19:38:50Z")
So long as we’re floating trial balloons for what should be done about Snowden, I hope somebody out there floats one that says the US should stop its spying and just accept that it cannot and should not see everything that goes on > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ve said it in all the other threads. He should have approached his Congressman or Senator. If he tired that and failed, I might have more sympathy for him. But he took the easy route; the coward’s route. You mean the effective route. Sure, we get what you’re saying. You want to see a man suffer and be obstructed at every point, you want to see him sweat and bleed until he finally climbs over that mountain and plants the flag. You want to see him do a little penance for an illegal activity, no matter if its simply exposing other illegal activity, because in your mind, it makes you feel better that you’re not supporting someone who is not going to be kicked in the teeth just a little for betraying the laws he swore to uphold. You think that if you supported Snowden, it means that you support all lawbreakers, or that you support the ends justifying the means, and that terrifies you because you can’t conceive of a middle option. Of course, you probably also think that if you support this criminal, it means you can’t morally say you don’t support other criminals and your entire underlying morality falls apart. There is no reason at all Snowden needed to suffer even a little bit for what he wanted to do. There are legal ways to do things like this but they don’t always work, and barring that, if the illegalities are severe and pervasive enough, the best way to bring them out into the light is to do it as effective as possible. It doesn’t matter what it makes one looks like, that they are shirking their responsibility or not suffering for their martyrdom, all that it matters is that the job is done. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/182 "2013-12-18T20:34:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Really? How old are you. This sounds like a lily white in Sociology 101. 1. And I’ve never taken a sociology class. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/183 "2013-12-18T20:35:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I suspect that you would have fitted well into many jurisdictions that believe in the absolute validity of local law. Nazi Germany, Cambodia in the Sixties and Seventies, North Korea now and many more have well-established systems approved by a constitution. > > I suspect that you would also have been quite happy there considering your statist views. You and I appear to have very different understandings of what a functioning rule of law is, or is it your belief that a North Korean citizen can make allegations of government malfeasance and get a fair hearing in an impartial court? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/184 "2013-12-18T20:37:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You seem unable to take an internationalist perspective. Many people who were criminals in other jurisdictions have been given protection by the US. Do you consider these people to be criminals? I don’t have any loyalty to or obligation to follow the laws of jurisdictions I am not a citizen of, resiident of or passing through, or doing business in. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/185 "2013-12-18T23:22:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t have any loyalty to or obligation to follow the laws of jurisdictions I am not a citizen of, resiident of or passing through, or doing business in. The United States government has signed a treaty recognising the validity of German law. They should not then turn around and spend billions of dollars for the express purpose of violating German law. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/186 "2013-12-18T23:33:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So long as we’re floating trial balloons for what should be done about Snowden, I hope somebody out there floats one that says the US should stop its spying and just accept that it cannot and should not see everything that goes on Merry Christmas: \*\* Strip NSA of power to collect phone data records, Obama review panel says\*\* • Review proposes greater authority for spying on foreign leaders • Government ‘should be banned from undermining encryption’ • Forty-six recommendations in 300-page report released early > **[Obama review panel: strip NSA of power to collect phone data records](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/18/nsa-bulk-collection-phone-date-obama-review-panel)** > > • Government 'should be banned from undermining encryption' • Review proposes greater authority for spying on foreign leaders • Forty-six recommendations in 300-page report released early I presume it has no chance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/187 "2013-12-18T23:34:32Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Sure, we get what you’re saying. You want to see a man suffer and be obstructed at every point, you want to see him sweat and bleed until he finally climbs over that mountain and plants the flag. You want to see him do a little penance for an illegal activity, no matter if its simply exposing other illegal activity, because in your mind, it makes you feel better that you’re not supporting someone who is not going to be kicked in the teeth just a little for betraying the laws he swore to uphold. You think that if you supported Snowden, it means that you support all lawbreakers, or that you support the ends justifying the means, and that terrifies you because you can’t conceive of a middle option. Of course, you probably also think that if you support this criminal, it means you can’t morally say you don’t support other criminals and your entire underlying morality falls apart. Wow, I didn’t realize that simply speaking to your Congressional Representatives was such a perilous, painful endeavor. Ignorance fought! Seriously, though… the straw is strong with this one! I only ask that he make the most modest of efforts to bring this to light within the system before deciding for himself that he must break the law and flee to Russia. As it is he made ZERO effort. There is enough room between ZERO and your description to fit, well, all the straw in China. To mx a metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/188 "2013-12-18T23:47:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A man with a huge amount of personal courage would be willing to spend the rest of his life in prison for that belief. Snowden lacks that kind of courage. I agree with the above statement but are the only options “huge amount of personal courage” and “coward”? Do you honestly believe that Snowden’s goal was to live in Moscow? Does he immediately become a hero if he returns to the US to face the charges? I’m not willing to call Snowden a hero but current events lead me to believe that he did the right thing. He certainly is no coward. How many of us have changed the world for the better? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/189 "2013-12-18T23:58:52Z")
I doubt very much Snowden wants to be a hero either - he’s just a whistleblower on the crazy excesses of a branch of Government, and I’m sure he’d be happy to be so described. The ‘hero’ traitor’ nonsense is just labels it suits other people to put on him. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/190 "2013-12-19T00:04:28Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > No, Snowden is not a criminal; Snowden is a hero for exposing the crimes of the American government. The criminals are in the American government. > > \>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\> > > From where I stand the criminals are in the American government and they need to be stopped. Snowden is not a hero to us (the USA) Snowden is a hero to those who would see us fail. If you want to stop the Feds from being wrong … where do you start? You sure don’t start at the same place that American interest are being protected. Do you know that 911 is calculated to have cost over one trillion dollars in fear alone? Make a list of all the people the NSA is hurting that are innocent … now put that list next to the ones they are protecting us from. If my name is on their radar … I guarantee you one thing I have not called anyone else on their radar, because I am innocent and proud of it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/191 "2013-12-19T00:40:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I only ask that he make the most modest of efforts to bring this to light within the system Any fool can learn from his own experience; the wise learn from [the experience of others](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16937061&postcount=130). > [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > If you want to stop the Feds from being wrong … where do you start? You start by limiting their power so that their ability to do wrong is curtailed. That’s how the American system is set up. > [@](#): > > You sure don’t start at the same place that American interest are being protected. I know all these words, but I can’t parse this into anything coherent. > [@](#): > > Do you know that 911 is calculated to have cost over one trillion dollars in fear alone? All the more reason to treat your fear-mongering with the disdain it deserves. > [@](#): > > Make a list of all the people the NSA is hurting that are innocent If you insist. I’ll need some help, given the length of the list, but here’s a start: [‘LoveINT’: Given Immense Powers, NSA Employees Super Cyber-Stalked Their Crushes](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/09/loveint-given-immense-powers-nsa-employees-super-cyber-stalked-their-crushes/) [Study: NSA Spying May Cost U.S. Companies $35 Billion](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/11/27/study-nsa-spying-may-cost-us-companies-35-billion) > [@](#): > > … now put that list next to the ones they are protecting us from. OK, that one’s easier. . . . . …or did you mean ones they _claim to be_ protecting us from? [Claim on “Attacks Thwarted” by NSA Spreads Despite Lack of Evidence](http://www.propublica.org/article/claim-on-attacks-thwarted-by-nsa-spreads-despite-lack-of-evidence) [NSA Claim of Thwarted NYSE Plot Contradicted by Court Documents](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nsa-claim-thwarted-nyse-plot-contradicted-court-documents/story?id=19436557) [NSA Claims It Foiled Nonsensical Plot to Destroy US Economy](http://news.antiwar.com/2013/12/17/nsa-claims-it-foiled-nonsensical-plot-to-destroy-us-economy/) ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/192 "2013-12-19T01:05:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > As a citizen of a country with a functioning rule of law, it’s my obligation to respect and abide by those laws. I agree in the case of slightly bad laws. But if the law is bad enough – think the Fugitive Slave Act – violating it is highly commendable. Now, I don’t rank the evil of loss of privacy nearly as high as most on this thread. And I have a suspicion that if the US government is allowed less resources for snooping, there will be more devoted to human intelligence. Perhaps I have read too many spy novels, but this seems far more likely to result in loss of freedom, and torture, than someone checking who I, or Angela Merkel, like to telephone. If I really did think the NSA has put us in a 1984 world – and I don’t – sure, Snowden is justified. As it is, I think he is putting legitimate efforts to prevent militant attacks against civilians at risk. But if he was outing torture, his contempt for US law would be justified. ` ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/193 "2013-12-19T01:28:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 1. And I’ve never taken a sociology class. I assumed not. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/194 "2013-12-19T01:35:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 1. And I’ve never taken a sociology class. I assumed not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/195 "2013-12-19T01:37:51Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Any fool can learn from his own experience; the wise learn from [the experience of others](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16937061&postcount=130). I am unconvinced. We’re talking about breaking the law and becoming a fugitive. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/196 "2013-12-19T01:38:14Z")
Error ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/197 "2013-12-19T02:04:14Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I agree with the above statement but are the only options “huge amount of personal courage” and “coward”? Do you honestly believe that Snowden’s goal was to live in Moscow? I believe his goal was to become famous and never have to work again. Mission accomplished. > [@](#): > > Does he immediately become a hero if he returns to the US to face the charges? No, but he’d earn my respect for doing so. > [@](#): > > I’m not willing to call Snowden a hero but current events lead me to believe that he did the right thing. He certainly is no coward. How many of us have changed the world for the better? He put my life in danger and the lives of millions of other Americans, and may have completely destroyed a useful tool in the war on terror to soothe his own ego. I hardly consider that doing the right thing or changing the world for the better. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/198 "2013-12-19T02:06:49Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I agree in the case of slightly bad laws. But if the law is bad enough – think the Fugitive Slave Act – violating it is highly commendable. What’s even more commendable is working within the system to repeal the law. It’s not the role of the individual to decide which laws should or shouldn’t be followed - down that road leads anarchy, and that attitude is a major contributor to the stress being put on our police and legal system. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/199 "2013-12-19T02:23:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I am unconvinced. I cited events that serve as a direct test of the proposition “this problem can be fixed by working within the system”. You’re “unconvinced” – OK, fine, plenty of people are “unconvinced” that the earth is more than 6000 years old or that men walked on the moon. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/200 "2013-12-19T03:06:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow, I didn’t realize that simply speaking to your Congressional Representatives was such a perilous, painful endeavor. Ignorance fought! It is if you’re talking about national secrets! I know you’re being serious because more than one person has told you of prior examples of people who tried to do things the right way and was severely punished. Surely you wouldn’t be ignorant enough to sarcastically ignore proof that your plan has been tried and failed, you’re much too smart for that! And surely you are also too smart to suggest that Snowden himself must personally go through this penance rather than learn from the examples of his predecessors > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Seriously, though… the straw is strong with this one! I only ask that he make the most modest of efforts to bring this to light within the system before deciding for himself that he must break the law and flee to Russia. He doesn’t need to. Others have tried it. Read the thread if you want examples. Therefore Snowden did the only thing he could do > [@John\_Mace](#): > > As it is he made ZERO effort. There is enough room between ZERO and your description to fit, well, all the straw in China. To mx a metaphor. Other potential whistleblowers did the work for him so he doesn’t have to. Snowden gave up a life of luxury and a hot girlfriend to live in a snowy wasteland at the whim of an abusive near-dictatorship. He has sacrificed enough. He did the right thing by escaping before he could be silenced and I hope he releases everything and is eventually pardoned and given a statue in front of the NSA [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=11)