# NSA considering an amnesty for Edward Snowden ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401 "2013-12-15T19:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/201 "2013-12-19T03:14:54Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Other potential whistleblowers did the work for him so he doesn’t have to. Snowden gave up a life of luxury and a hot girlfriend to live in a snowy wasteland at the whim of an abusive near-dictatorship. He has sacrificed enough. He did the right thing by escaping before he could be silenced and I hope he releases everything and is eventually pardoned and given a statue in front of the NSA Right next to the statues of Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs, I assume? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/202 "2013-12-19T04:55:13Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Merry Christmas: > \*\* > Strip NSA of power to collect phone data records, Obama review panel says\*\* > > • Review proposes greater authority for spying on foreign leaders > > • Government ‘should be banned from undermining encryption’ > > • Forty-six recommendations in 300-page report released early. It also says the collection of telephone metadata hasn’t prevented any terrorist attacks and the NSA could rely on non-bulk collection. So everybody can stop worrying about that, right? If a review panel and the courts and many legislators are endorsing a bunch of the issues Snowden brought to light, it’s kind of difficult to justify treating him like a traitor. If the NSA can do what it likes and make up a justification later, the government can come up with a reason not to charge him. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/203 "2013-12-19T05:46:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If a review panel and the courts and many legislators are endorsing a bunch of the issues Snowden brought to light, it’s kind of difficult to justify treating him like a traitor. He stole classified documents from the US government, gave them to citizens of a foreign nation, and thereby made them accessible indiscriminately to our enemies worldwide. That makes him a traitor whether he was exposing key components of our security apparatus or the White House’s weekly shopping list. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/204 "2013-12-19T06:12:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That makes him a traitor whether he was exposing key components of our security apparatus or the White House’s weekly shopping list. That which is asserted without evidence… ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/205 "2013-12-19T07:01:41Z")
I have no ethical problem with Snowden leaking the material he’s leaked; government will tend to overstep and abuse its ability to keep secrets, and there needs to be a check. In fact, I think it’s commendable. Trying to go through legitimate channels would have been one way to go, but there were good reasons not to have done so. I seriously doubt it would be effective, and in his shoes I would think there’s a strong possibility that doing so would get me shut down before the info could get out in any form. I also have no problem with Snowden’s fleeing the country. People are entitled to self-preservation, and keeping himself free gives him more flexibility in terms of leaking documents (as opposed to just getting one shot at it before being arrested). And certainly his mere failure to do **the most** courageous and self-sacrificing thing possible doesn’t make him a coward. (“So you wrestle bears for a living, eh? That’s the coward’s way out. Why not elephants?”) All that said, if we catch him he’s gotta go to jail. Government doesn’t work so well when people who commit extremely serious offenses are allowed to escape prosecution just because we like their politics (it’s a little disturbing how blasé some posters are about the rule of law). Also, just as government’s tendency to abuse secrecy needs to be kept in check by leaks, leakers need to be kept in check to prevent over-sharing (inability to keep secrets means inability to conduct international affairs). He willfully committed a serious crime, therefore he should be prosecuted. To merit an exemption from that fundamental principle requires clearing an extremely high bar. (That’s all rather aside from the question of whether to grant him amnesty as a \*tactical \*measure to stop future leaks. I guess I don’t have an inherent objection to that, though I’m skeptical that it would be worth it or in the country’s best interest.) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/206 "2013-12-19T08:20:26Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > All that said, if we catch him he’s gotta go to jail. Government doesn’t work so well when people who commit extremely serious offenses are allowed to escape prosecution just because we like their politics (it’s a little disturbing how blasé some posters are about the rule of law). Also, just as government’s tendency to abuse secrecy needs to be kept in check by leaks, leakers need to be kept in check to prevent over-sharing (inability to keep secrets means inability to conduct international affairs). He willfully committed a serious crime, therefore he should be prosecuted. To merit an exemption from that fundamental principle requires clearing an extremely high bar. That is obscene. It’s bad enough when schools do this zero tolerance bullshit to hide from responsibility for their own actions, and you want the government to punish good men because their righteousness is fucking _inconvenient_? What’s next, put all those acquitted men back on death row, because admitting the courts get it wrong sometimes is embarassing? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/207 "2013-12-19T08:31:17Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That is obscene. It’s bad enough when schools do this zero tolerance bullshit to hide from responsibility for their own actions, and you want the government to punish good men because their righteousness is fucking _inconvenient_? I want the government to punish people who break the law and admit to breaking the law, because the entire point of _having_ a code of law in the first place it that applies to everyone uniformly, regardless of whether we think they’re a good guy or whether they decide that they’re more important than the law. > [@](#): > > What’s next, put all those acquitted men back on death row, because admitting the courts get it wrong sometimes is embarassing? Well, surely you agree that death row inmates should be allowed to break out of prison if they _believe_ that their sentence was unjust, right? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/208 "2013-12-19T12:19:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I want the government to punish people who break the law and admit to breaking the law, because the entire point of _having_ a code of law in the first place it that applies to everyone uniformly, regardless of whether we think they’re a good guy or whether they decide that they’re more important than the law. You might have mentioned that once or twice. I think we pretty much got to the bottom of your mind set. Will you continue to repeat the same post in every thread where a legal issue occurs? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/209 "2013-12-19T12:22:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It also says the collection of telephone metadata hasn’t prevented any terrorist attacks and the NSA could rely on non-bulk collection. So everybody can stop worrying about that, right? If a review panel and the courts and many legislators are endorsing a bunch of the issues Snowden brought to light, it’s kind of difficult to justify treating him like a traitor. If the NSA can do what it likes and make up a justification later, the government can come up with a reason not to charge him. The metadata stuff wasn’t the only stuff that he took and leaksed, though, was it? Snowden’s leaks are about a whole host of NSA programs, from the metadata, to NSA spying on foreign countries, to Stuxnet, to tapping phones of foreign leaders. It seems like this is a general leak of NSA SIGINT. And I think that what’s troubling people about Snowden’s actions, or at least what’s troubling me about Snowden’s actions is that this is some lower level NSA staffer deciding unilaterally that classified documents should be leaked. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/210 "2013-12-19T12:35:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > And I think that what’s troubling people about Snowden’s actions, or at least what’s troubling me about Snowden’s actions is that this is some lower level NSA staffer deciding unilaterally that classified documents should be leaked. what troubles me is this evolved and carried on for a decade or so and none of many thousands of people who could have spoken out did so. I honestly find that extraordinary. This behaviour should really not have been left to a contract analyst to reveal to the US people - as Angela Merkel says, the behaviour of the NSA is basically that of the STASI. And no one said a damn thing until Snowden. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/211 "2013-12-19T14:42:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > And I think that what’s troubling people about Snowden’s actions, or at least what’s troubling me about Snowden’s actions is that this is some lower level NSA staffer deciding unilaterally that classified documents should be leaked. That is ultimately the fault of the system – if it fails to deliver an acceptable performance, people will find themselves compelled to circumvent it. If the government routinely fails to punish thugs and thieves, people will take up vigilantism. If the government imposes a dysfunctional command economy, people will create black markets. If the government stonewalls objections offered within established channels, people will go outside those channels. This case is an example of that last one. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/212 "2013-12-19T15:17:19Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Make a list of all the people the NSA is hurting that are innocent A new addition for that list: [Brazil gives $4.5b defense contract to Saab instead of Boeing over NSA row](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/12/18/brazil-gives-4-5bdefensecontracttosaabinsteadofboeingovernsarow.html) Umpteen badly-needed US jobs down the drain, and that’s just one example. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/213 "2013-12-19T15:51:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, surely you agree that death row inmates should be allowed to break out of prison if they _believe_ that their sentence was unjust, right? If the sentence was passed down without due process or a fair trial and the person protesting their innocence was right all along then…yes. I’ve seen “The Shawshank Redemption” and I believe Andy Dufresne was eventually proved right. Going through the official channels did him precious little good and so we all cheered his escape did we not? Hasn’t the investigatory panel pretty much now endorsed the concerns that drove Snowden to action? That’s how it reads to me. Did not a federal judge describe the NSA actions as “unconstitutional”? Seems like the facts are lining up in Snowdens favour. I’d imagine an amnesty or plea-bargain for him where he can return to the USA for a lesser charge conviction and minimal soft jail time in return for some quality bean-spilling from him on his Russian contacts and a public acknowledgement that he has brought about change in the NSA for the better. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/214 "2013-12-19T16:28:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, but he’d earn my respect for doing so. That’s interesting, because when Manning leaked documents and stood trial for it, you said she should be shot. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/215 "2013-12-19T17:18:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It also says the collection of telephone metadata hasn’t prevented any terrorist attacks and the NSA could rely on non-bulk collection. So everybody can stop worrying about that, right? If a review panel and the courts and many legislators are endorsing a bunch of the issues Snowden brought to light, it’s kind of difficult to justify treating him like a traitor. If the NSA can do what it likes and make up a justification later, the government can come up with a reason not to charge him. Of course, on this very issue, James Clapper is literally and legally In Contempt of Congress, and the Justice Dept lawyers who lied to FISA court judges were in Contempt of Court. Not a lot of legal action happeneing there. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/216 "2013-12-19T18:25:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He stole classified documents from the US government, gave them to citizens of a foreign nation, and thereby made them accessible indiscriminately to our enemies worldwide. That makes him a traitor whether he was exposing key components of our security apparatus or the White House’s weekly shopping list. The classified documents were of a program that is illegal and unsupported by most Americans, therefore his stealing them makes it ok. In fact, I’ll go so far to say that stealing secret document that later turns out to be of an illegal and/or unsupported program is ok, and I don’t care if that encourages people to steal documents randomly in order to find something illegal. I think spying is distasteful and too widespread and am glad to rein it in by reducing the amount of secrets the government has > [@Smapti](#): > > Well, surely you agree that death row inmates should be allowed to break out of prison if they _believe_ that their sentence was unjust, right? How about this? If they do break out of prison and we later find out their sentence was unjust, they don’t have to be punished for breaking out of prison? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/217 "2013-12-19T18:50:09Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That is obscene. It’s bad enough when schools do this zero tolerance bullshit to hide from responsibility for their own actions, and you want the government to punish good men because their righteousness is fucking _inconvenient_? > > What’s next, put all those acquitted men back on death row, because admitting the courts get it wrong sometimes is embarassing? Zero tolerance? This isn’t zero tolerance. He’s not in trouble for leaking the lunch menu in the NSA cafeteria or the names of the girls in the steno pool. The point isn’t so much that we can’t let Snowden get away with it. The point is that we can’t allow a \*portion \*of the population, or of people in government, who like what he’s done, to dictate that we ignore the law in this case. It’s not like “Free Snowden!” has 98% approval. Half of the country is incensed by what he’s done and wants him prosecuted, and the law is on their side. You and I don’t get to tell them that they’re out of luck. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/218 "2013-12-19T18:51:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s interesting, because when Manning leaked documents and stood trial for it, you said she should be shot. And I stand by that, but the fact that he didn’t run makes him a better person than Snowden. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/219 "2013-12-19T18:54:04Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The classified documents were of a program that is illegal and unsupported by most Americans, therefore his stealing them makes it ok. In fact, I’ll go so far to say that stealing secret document that later turns out to be of an illegal and/or unsupported program is ok, and I don’t care if that encourages people to steal documents randomly in order to find something illegal. Except that a big part of the reason people are so outraged about this program is because it _is_ legal. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/220 "2013-12-19T19:33:47Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Half of the country is incensed by what he’s done and wants him prosecuted, and the law is on their side. You and I don’t get to tell them that they’re out of luck. Can you recall another “treason” case where ONLY half of the country was incensed and wanted the “traitor” prosecuted? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=12)