# NSA considering an amnesty for Edward Snowden ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401 "2013-12-15T19:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/221 "2013-12-19T19:56:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you recall another “treason” case where ONLY half of the country was incensed and wanted the “traitor” prosecuted? Well, Chelsea Manning for one, though in neither case would I go so far as to call their actions “treason.” But what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/222 "2013-12-19T20:04:18Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Well, Chelsea Manning for one, though in neither case would I go so far as to call their actions “treason.” I would venture that in Manning’s case a lot more than 50% were “incensed”. The point is, when 50% of the country supports the man’s actions, it’s kinda hard to call it “treason”. “Treason” is a pretty unequivocal designation. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/223 "2013-12-19T20:04:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In our society, we have a well-established system that decides the validity of laws as provided by the Constitution. Indeed we do. Let’s see what someone trained in the functioning of that well-established system [has to say](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/19/almost-orwellian-why-judge-leon-is-right-about-massive-nsa-spying-program/): > [@](#): > > The Constitution requires a case or controversy – basically lawyers arguing against each other on behalf of clients whose interests are adverse – in order to invoke the jurisdiction of federal courts. The FISC judges, who sit and sign in secret, do not do so under the Constitution, because they have no case or controversy before them. They have only the NSA before them. Leon was the first federal judge to rule on the constitutionality of NSA spying under the Constitution – in the context of a litigant challenging the government and the government defending itself. And he found that spying to be in violation of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/224 "2013-12-19T20:13:58Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Indeed we do. Let’s see what someone trained in the functioning of that well-established system [has to say](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/19/almost-orwellian-why-judge-leon-is-right-about-massive-nsa-spying-program/): Right. So the system works and there’s no need to steal classified information. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/225 "2013-12-19T20:16:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Right. So the system works and there’s no need to steal classified information. That’s pretty disingenuous. The “system”, in this case, wouldn’t have had a chance to “work” if Snowden didn’t steal classified information. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/226 "2013-12-19T20:27:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I would venture that in Manning’s case a lot more than 50% were “incensed”. [Apparently not, no](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/june_2013/52_view_wikileaks_suspect_bradley_manning_as_a_traitor). I’d wager that opinion on Manning and opinion on Snowden overlap almost entirely. > [@](#): > > The point is, when 50% of the country supports the man’s actions, it’s kinda hard to call it “treason”. “Treason” is a pretty unequivocal designation. Well sure, like I said I wouldn’t call it treason, myself. It’s still illegal though. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/227 "2013-12-19T20:55:28Z")
Turns out me and some chick in The New Yorker are tight on this: > [@](#): > > This brings us to the second case for amnesty: Snowden has done the country good; he has earned his freedom . That is a line of reason that some in the government will have a hard time accepting. But there are a dozen conversations that would not be taking place without his revelations—conversations with consequences, as illustrated by Judge Richard Leon’s finding, earlier this week, that the N.S.A.’s bulk collection of metadata is likely unconstitutional. **Nor is it credible to say that Snowden could have done what he did without breaking the law,** not when we have also learned that the normal instruments of oversight and judicial review were broken. **When Clapper lied to Wyden, that sealed the case for amnesty.** > > Isn’t that why there is such a thing as amnesty—to square circles like these? > **[Why Edward Snowden Deserves Amnesty](https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-edward-snowden-deserves-amnesty?utm_source=tny&utm_campaign=generalsocial&utm_medium=facebook)** > > One case for giving amnesty to Snowden, the N.S.A. leaker, is the good he has done for America; the other is the benefit he can still offer the government. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/228 "2013-12-19T20:58:09Z")
So … because " the normal instruments of oversight and judicial review were broken" Snowden had to break ‘the law’ in order to try and mend the law. okay, that’ll work for the purposes of amnesty or Pardon. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/229 "2013-12-19T21:50:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s pretty disingenuous. The “system”, in this case, wouldn’t have had a chance to “work” if Snowden didn’t steal classified information. That’s pure conjecture. You can’t say that noone would ever have learned about the program or found standing to sue if Snowden hadn’t committed treason. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/230 "2013-12-19T22:08:16Z")
If I were Snowden, I’d sue you for libel for that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/231 "2013-12-19T22:35:01Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Of course, on this very issue, James Clapper is literally and legally In Contempt of Congress, and the Justice Dept lawyers who lied to FISA court judges were in Contempt of Court. > > Not a lot of legal action happeneing there. Shh, don’t give the kool-aid drinkers a reason to shut up. “Proper channels” and all. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/232 "2013-12-19T23:08:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s pure conjecture. You can’t say that noone would ever have learned about the program or found standing to sue if Snowden hadn’t committed treason. How can you have “standing to sue” about something that you have no idea exists? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/233 "2013-12-20T03:15:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You can’t say that noone would ever have learned about the program or found standing to sue if Snowden hadn’t committed treason. Gee, if only we didn’t have _years_ of examples of the federal government denying people standing for bullshit reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/234 "2013-12-20T16:00:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I believe his goal was to become famous and never have to work again. Mission accomplished. > [@](#): > > No, but he’d earn my respect for doing so. These two statements do not parse. If you believe your first point, how could you respect Snowden even if he did return to the US to face the thing we can only ironically call justice nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/235 "2013-12-20T16:35:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, surely you agree that death row inmates should be allowed to break out of prison if they _believe_ that their sentence was unjust, right? Well if they think their sentence was unjust because they saved quite a few lives by killing a psychopath, then yes, they should be allowed to break out of prison. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/236 "2013-12-20T16:39:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s interesting, because when Manning leaked documents and stood trial for it, you said she should be shot. Smapti would respect the hell out of her corpse! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/237 "2013-12-20T16:47:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you recall another “treason” case where ONLY half of the country was incensed and wanted the “traitor” prosecuted? Sure, the prosecution for the Valerie Plame affair. I was outraged that only Scooter Libby got prosecuted … clearly, Cheney was the responsible party, Libby is just a minion … and that Libby was pardoned. Cheney, was of course, a traitor to the government he “led” … he was only trying to get revenge for Plame’s husband revealing evidence of his war crimes in lying to the American people to get us into an unnecessary and unjust war (Iraq). I believe there were a lot of Americans who disagreed with me. You might have been one of them. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/238 "2013-12-20T17:54:57Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > [Apparently not, no](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/june_2013/52_view_wikileaks_suspect_bradley_manning_as_a_traitor). I’d wager that opinion on Manning and opinion on Snowden overlap almost entirely. I support Manning, but she was a tool for Wikileaks, and leaked hundreds of thousands of documents indiscriminately. I believe Wikileaks does their best to scrub the leaks for information that would actually harm people (as opposed to embarrass governments) before releasing them, but it was questionable for an American to place those documents in foreign hands before doing so herself. I can see _some_ punishment being appropriate, but certainly not to the extent she actually got. Snowden is in complete control, making very sure no one is actually put in harm’s way by his disclosures, and leaking them carefully and slowly for maximum effect. He’s a complete professional about this, and nobody’s tool. Way more deserving of the “hero” label, in my opinion. He’s essentially filling the role journalists are supposed to play in a functioning democracy, but that actual journalists have refused to do for a few decades now. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/239 "2013-12-20T19:11:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > These two statements do not parse. If you believe your first point, how could you respect Snowden even if he did return to the US to face the thing we can only ironically call justice nowadays? Because it’d prove that he actually does have the courage of his convictions and isn’t just a self-serving demagogue. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/240 "2013-12-20T19:15:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because it’d prove that he actually does have the courage of his convictions and isn’t just a self-serving demagogue. Do you actually know what “demagogue” means? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=13)