# NSA considering an amnesty for Edward Snowden ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401 "2013-12-15T19:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/21 "2013-12-16T02:32:50Z")
Why the hell would he come back? He risked his life to inform the American voting public what the government is doing to them in their name, he’s not going to give that up just to come back. Or else he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. No, screw amnesty, he needs a full pardon. But, like many heroes, he’ll be lucky just to get a token apology a century from now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/22 "2013-12-16T02:44:55Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > No, screw amnesty, he needs a full pardon. But, like many heroes, he’ll be lucky just to get a token apology a century from now. You misspelled “criminals”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/23 "2013-12-16T02:45:50Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Why the hell would he come back? He risked his life to inform the American voting public what the government is doing to them in their name, he’s not going to give that up just to come back. Or else he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. > > No, screw amnesty, he needs a full pardon. But, like many heroes, he’ll be lucky just to get a token apology a century from now. How did he “risk his life”? Yes, he risked getting thrown in jail, but that’s hardly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/24 "2013-12-16T02:53:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You misspelled “criminals”. [Yep](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience), heroes often must break laws. Like MLK, or Thomas Jefferson. I can’t recall many heroes who _weren’t_ criminals. Can you? Snowden has behaved better and more professionally than those rowdy criminals at the Boston Tea Party, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/25 "2013-12-16T02:56:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How did he “risk his life”? > > Yes, he risked getting thrown in jail, but that’s hardly the same thing. He gave up his former, well-paid, luxurious life in Hawaii, and his gorgeous stripper girlfriend, so that you and I could have this conversation. You’re right, he didn’t risk death, but he did risk [torture](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/26 "2013-12-16T03:00:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > [Yep](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience), heroes often must break laws. Like MLK, or Thomas Jefferson. I don’t recall MLK or TJ breaking the law as an act of first resort, nor do I recall them fleeing across the boarder upon acting. Analogy fails. > [@](#): > > I can’t recall many heroes who _weren’t_ criminals. Can you? I can think of hundreds. Is it your contention that an act of heroism reacquires a criminal act? Because that would be a rather odd definition of the term… ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/27 "2013-12-16T03:11:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can think of hundreds. Name some. I’m not talking about fire fighters or doctors here, but people in history books. Maybe war heroes like Audie Murphy would count. But I can’t think of many social or political heroes that didn’t break the rules. > [@](#): > > Is it your contention that an act of heroism reacquires a criminal act? Because that would be a rather odd definition of the term… No, but I do think it requires a willingness to ignore the law. Especially when the hero is fighting entrenched powers and unjust laws. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/28 "2013-12-16T03:37:16Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > :rolleyes: indeed. You seem to not have much of a clue. And you seem to fail to grasp the rules of this forum. Back off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/29 "2013-12-16T03:43:57Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Name some. I’m not talking about fire fighters or doctors here, but people in history books. Maybe war heroes like Audie Murphy would count. But I can’t think of many social or political heroes that didn’t break the rules. Oh, so now the goal posts have been moved from “hero” to “social or political hero”. You’re not talking about firefighters or doctors, but most other people are. Here’s the definition: > [@](#): > > hero   > he·ro [heer-oh] Show IPA > noun, plural he·roes; for 5 also he·ros. > 1.a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities. > > 2.a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child. Not seeing anything about breaking laws there. > [@](#): > > No, but I do think it requires a willingness to ignore the law. Especially when the hero is fighting entrenched powers and unjust laws. That’s a “unique” opinion. It certainly might apply to a subset of heroes, but you’re redefining the word if you think it “requires” that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/30 "2013-12-16T04:15:03Z")
Don’t you remember when Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a bus, then fled to the Soviet Union and was given a luxury apartment and praised by Kruschshev? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/31 "2013-12-16T04:36:52Z")
The only situation where an amnesty for Snowden would be considered is if the government decided that NSA actions were fundamentally wrong. There is a review of these actions going on; the reports are that at most only very minor changes will be made. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/32 "2013-12-16T05:18:57Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Two possible answers: > > 1. He’s off the reservation and will be slapped down. People lose message discipline all the time. > > 2. It’s a trial balloon. As the revelations about the NSA grow, Snowden is becoming somewhat of a hero around the globe. For bad or good, his Q-rating is enormously positive overseas and with some segments of the US population. If we assume that NOTHING is going to prevent the rest of the info from coming out, then it might be best to try to make a positive spin by working with Snowden somehow. If it receives positive reviews it goes from ‘one guy’ saying it to ‘the government is now willing to’. It is absolutely a Trial Balloon. Nothing like this has been done before (that I can recall). The US hasn’t been able to discover the full scope of the breach - and Snowden has released files that as far as the NSA knew - he shouldn’t have been able to. Although they have broken into reporters homes, hacked everything they can, and obviously are spending tons of manpower and $$$ on this - they still don’t know the full scope. The US doesn’t like to negotiate with terrorists or spies (but obviously they do). The problem in this case is it is so public - what can they do? He’d either have to do some jail time - or Obama will fall on his sword in a few years. It also could be a sham story - if we really are confident we know everything - they could be doing it for other reasons. But in no way is this story anything other than a planned story. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/33 "2013-12-16T08:18:16Z")
Even if the President signed an amnesty for Snowden - I mean, like some kind of super-amnesty, like, ‘unlimited immunity to prosecution for any crime, of any description, committed before this date’ - does anybody believe it would be honored? Are things like that ever actually honored? I mean, amnesty is just a trick played on people who watch too much TV, right? It doesn’t actually exist as a legal instrument, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/34 "2013-12-16T08:32:27Z")
> [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > I mean, amnesty is just a trick played on people who watch too much TV, right? It doesn’t actually exist as a legal instrument, does it? Technically, I think “amnesty” is something that applies to a class of people, you can’t give amnesty to an individual. Ford used an Executive Order to give amnesty to Draft dodgers, and Carter used the Presidential Pardoning power to do the same. But in this case (which again, I don’t think has any chance of happening) I think the NSA official is just suggesting the DoJ would agree to drop charges. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/35 "2013-12-16T09:32:55Z")
No, Snowden is not a criminal; Snowden is a hero for exposing the crimes of the American government. The criminals are in the American government. That any Americans would defend the crimes of their own government, which they would condemn if it were any other government, and condemn the person who exposed them just shows how irrational nationalism is and how dangerous. It is clearly a case of using a very different yardstick. The notion that by not turning himself in to the criminals he is disqualifying himself is laughable, it is utterly stupid and it just shows the hypocrisy of those who say it and who would never say the same thing about Chinese or Russian or Cuban dissidents who sought and were granted asylum by America. Why shouldn’t they be sent back to their countries so they can thus validate their actions? Long before 2001 American spying was abusive, excessive and illegal and after 2001 it has gotten so much worse. It needs to be stopped and for that it needs to be exposed. Snowden is a hero and my prediction is that he will be recognized as such by the American people within a few decades. (I was going to say “in his lifetime” but we never know what the American government might do to his lifetime.) It could be argued that the American people can subject themselves to a police state if they so wish but what I cannot accept is that they can give their government any valid authority to spy people in other countries. From where I stand the criminals are in the American government and they need to be stopped. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/36 "2013-12-16T10:28:20Z")
In the 1990s there was a case of a high-level diretor of GM who was of Spanish origin, nicknamed “SuperLópez”. He “defected” to go to Volkswagen in Germany and there were several suits against him alleging he took trade secrets with him to VW. It was a complicated legal case which dragged on. Finally, in 2000 the US government requested from Spain (where he had retired) the extradition of López to face criminal charges. The Spanish courts denied it on several grounds. One interesting thing that came out is that the NSA had been illegally spying others abroad in order to help GM (before and unrelated to the issue at hand). It was shown the NSA was involved in plain industrial spying in favor of American companies. In the end the extradition was denied. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/37 "2013-12-16T12:01:53Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > No, Snowden is not a criminal; Snowden is a hero for exposing the crimes of the American government. The criminals are in the American government. I don’t know if he’s a hero or not, but didn’t he pretty blatantly violate the Espionage Act? This part: > [@](#): > > Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; and this part: > [@](#): > > Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information— . . . > > concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or > > obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes— Seems kind of indisputable. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/38 "2013-12-16T13:15:59Z")
**John Mace** - I guess it’s an unintentional missquote but I didn’t post this “No, screw amnesty, he needs a full pardon. But, like many heroes, he’ll be lucky just to get a token apology a century from now.” To which you responded: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > You misspelled “criminals”. This is the original post to which you were referring: > [@DrCube](#): > > No, screw amnesty, he needs a full pardon. But, like many heroes, he’ll be lucky just to get a token apology a century from now. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/39 "2013-12-16T13:23:18Z")
> [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > Even if the President signed an amnesty for Snowden - I mean, like some kind of super-amnesty, like, ‘unlimited immunity to prosecution for any crime, of any description, committed before this date’ - does anybody believe it would be honored? Are things like that ever actually honored? > > I mean, amnesty is just a trick played on people who watch too much TV, right? It doesn’t actually exist as a legal instrument, does it? Of course it does. I don’t know how appropriate it is in this case as what is being suggested is actually a deal - no further prosecution in return for the data that hasn’t been published: not at all sure the terminology fits these circs. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/40 "2013-12-16T13:25:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Don’t you remember when Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a bus, then fled to the Soviet Union and was given a luxury apartment and praised by Kruschshev? I don’t remember the threat of torture hanging over her head for her “crimes”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=3)