# NSA considering an amnesty for Edward Snowden ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401 "2013-12-15T19:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sarah87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Sarah87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah87)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/41 "2013-12-16T13:27:35Z")
Why should Snowden ever come back? Most Americans certainly support him being charged with a crime: [http://www.statista.com/statistics/262560/opinion-of-americans-on-the-legal-charges-against-edward-snowden/](http://www.statista.com/statistics/262560/opinion-of-americans-on-the-legal-charges-against-edward-snowden/) Even if some kind of amnesty is granted, it’ll still be extremely unsafe for him - quite a lot of people think his leaks have threatened/cost American lives. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/42 "2013-12-16T13:32:39Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Two possible answers: > > 1. He’s off the reservation and will be slapped down. People lose message discipline all the time. > > 2. It’s a trial balloon. As the revelations about the NSA grow, Snowden is becoming somewhat of a hero around the globe. For bad or good, his Q-rating is enormously positive overseas and with some segments of the US population. If we assume that NOTHING is going to prevent the rest of the info from coming out, then it might be best to try to make a positive spin by working with Snowden somehow. If it receives positive reviews it goes from ‘one guy’ saying it to ‘the government is now willing to’. Snowden is a hero, plain and simple. The people we SHOULD be putting in jail work at the NSA, and give them their orders. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/43 "2013-12-16T13:37:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How did he “risk his life”? > > Yes, he risked getting thrown in jail, but that’s hardly the same thing. I’m betting the amount of prison time he faces works out to a rough equivalence of “life.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/44 "2013-12-16T13:42:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t recall MLK or TJ breaking the law as an act of first resort, nor do I recall them fleeing across the boarder upon acting. Analogy fails. John, the Bradley Manning case shows that the US government tortures whistleblowers and gives them absurdly long prison sentences. This is a change from MLK’s time. You need to stay current. Snowden’s actions are a reasonable response to behavior of the Bush … er, Obama … administration. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/45 "2013-12-16T13:51:26Z")
> [@Sarah87](#): > > Why should Snowden ever come back? Most Americans certainly support him being charged with a crime: [NSA data collection - should Edward Snowden be charged with a crime? July 2013 | Statista](http://www.statista.com/statistics/262560/opinion-of-americans-on-the-legal-charges-against-edward-snowden/) > > Even if some kind of amnesty is granted, it’ll still be extremely unsafe for him - quite a lot of people think his leaks have threatened/cost American lives. He won’t be pardoned and he won’t come back, I hope he can find a country in Europe where he can live the very pleasant life he deserves to live, free from persecution. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/46 "2013-12-16T13:52:05Z")
If he’s not careful he’ll end up as a Mandela figure; terrorist and saviour of the nation. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/47 "2013-12-16T14:14:20Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > That’s kind of the point: why would someone so senior within the NSA go on 60 Minutes and say this … Looks like we watched the same infomercial 😃 For me, the best part was when “60 Minutes” reporter (Miller, I think) said, matter-of-factly, that there’s nothing wrong with what NSA is doing and went on with TMZ part of the report. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/48 "2013-12-16T14:34:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t know if he’s a hero or not, but didn’t he pretty blatantly violate the Espionage Act? This part: > > and this part: > > Seems kind of indisputable. Is there anybody disputing that he broke the law as written? I don’t think so. That is the whole point. That when the system is corrupt and the law is being used for immoral ends then one is morally not obligated to follow it; in fact, I would argue one is obligated to not follow laws which are being used for immoral ends. And it is quite indisputable that Snowden broke the law with the purpose of exposing the illegal and immoral things the government is doing. That many Americans see him as a traitor rather than as a hero says a lot about the power of nationalism which puts “us” before “morally right”. It is frightening that many Americans support the spying, the torture, the killing by the American government. Things which if done by any other government would be unanimously condemned but are supported in spite of their abusive and immoral nature only because America is doing them. I believe Snowden will be recognised as a hero soon but if he is not it will be a bad reflection on the American people, not on him. The world is a better place because of individuals who denounce the wrongs being done by governments. > [@](#): > > [Nicolás Estévanez](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicol%C3%A1s_Est%C3%A9vanez) > > Nicolás Estévanez (Las Palmas, Canary Islands, 1838–Paris, France, 1914) was a Spanish military officer, politician and poet. > > Born in Las Palmas (Canary Islands) on 17 February 1838 the son of captain Francisco Estévanez and of Isabel Murphy. Very young, in 1852, he entered the military academy in Toledo and participated in the northern African war of 1859–1860 where he served with distinction and was awarded Spain’s highest military honor, the Laureate Cross of St. Ferdinand (Cruz Laureada de San Fernando). > > On 27 November 1871 he was stationed in Cuba with the rank of captain when he was ordered to carry out the execution of eight students who had been sentenced to death by a court martial who found them guilty of anti-Spanish activities and of vandalizing some tomb sites. > > Estévanez refused to carry out the order saying **“before my country come humanity and justice.”** > > For this motive he was expelled from the army but he never apologized or renounced his actions and was always proud of what he did. > > He participated in the revolution of September 1868 and joined the republican insurrection of 1869 for which he was imprisoned. > > He later was elected member of parliament and was appointed minister in the cabinet of Pi y Margall during the First Spanish Republic but with the restoration of the monarchy he went into exile and died in Paris, France, on 21 August 1914. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/49 "2013-12-16T14:40:28Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Is there anybody disputing that he broke the law as written? I don’t think so. > > That is the whole point. That when the system is corrupt and the law is being used for immoral ends then one is morally not obligated to follow it; in fact, I would argue one is obligated to not follow laws which are being used for immoral ends. > > And it is quite indisputable that Snowden broke the law with the purpose of exposing the illegal and immoral things the government is doing. > > That many Americans see him as a traitor rather than as a hero says a lot about the power of nationalism which puts “us” before “morally right”. > > It is frightening that many Americans support the spying, the torture, the killing by the American government. Things which if done by any other government would be unanimously condemned but are supported in spite of their abusive and immoral nature only because America is doing them. > > I believe Snowden will be recognised as a hero soon but if he is not it will be a bad reflection on the American people, not on him. > > The world is a better place because of individuals who denounce the wrongs being done by governments. I didn’t say he was a traitor. I said he was a criminal. He broke he law. If he was a hero, he’d stay here, face the music, and get the law changed. That’s what heroes do. Congress can change the law tomorrow if they think it needs changing. As it is, I’m not seeing a lot of movement in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/50 "2013-12-16T14:45:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Congress can change the law tomorrow if they think it needs changing. Are you being serious? That’s a lot of hope heaped at bunch of people with lowest approval in long time. What if they are collectively wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/51 "2013-12-16T14:48:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If he was a hero, he’d stay here, face the music, and get the law changed. Eh, I don’t think getting arrested is necessary to being a hero. Plus, I don’t see how staying in the US would “get the law changed” any more then not being here would. Rather the opposite, he’d presumably be held incommunicado a la Bradley Manning if he had stayed to be arrested. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/52 "2013-12-16T14:58:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t say he was a traitor. I said he was a criminal. He broke he law. If he was a hero, he’d stay here, face the music, and get the law changed. That’s what heroes do. Congress can change the law tomorrow if they think it needs changing. As it is, I’m not seeing a lot of movement in that direction. I find that to be nonsense. Congress for many years did not see the need to change slavery, racial segregation or other unjust laws. That did not make them right. It made Congress, and by extension the American people, wrong. For decades Mandela was an incarcerated criminal and even the USA considered him a terrorist. He might have been a “criminal” but look how the world sees him today. Who were right then? Those who said he was a criminal or those who thought he was a hero? And it has little to do with staying to suffer punishment. What would Snowden accomplish by that? Nothing other than demonstrate that his fellow Americans are wrong to the point of punishing him for doing good. The notion that victims needs to stay and suffer to validate their reasons aor actions is just plain silly. Do you believe the USA should send Chinese dissidents back to China so they can validate their dissidence? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/53 "2013-12-16T15:03:17Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Eh, I don’t think getting arrested is necessary to being a hero. > > Plus, I don’t see how staying in the US would “get the law changed” any more then not being here would. Rather the opposite, he’d presumably be held incommunicado a la Bradley Manning if he had stayed to be arrested. If he really think his cause is just, yes it is. That’s how you change the law. His trial would not be secret, and if he were incarcerated afterwards, that would be his rallying cry. I went to jail to change the law- vs - I fled to Russia to avoid being charged with the crime I committed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/54 "2013-12-16T15:14:05Z")
Forgot to add… And it’s not just the fleeing. It’s that he chose to break the law as his act of first resort. I’m not calling anyone who does that a “hero”. Also, we’ve been over this exact same ground in at least one other thread. No point in doing it again here, as it’s a hijack of the thread’s original purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/55 "2013-12-16T15:19:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If he really think his cause is just, yes it is. That’s how you change the law. You change the law by going to jail? I’m pretty sure laws have been changed without people going to jail. > [@](#): > > His trial would not be secret It wouldn’t really address the issues he’s interested in either. The case against him is pretty open-and-shut, and it doesn’t really have anything to do with the laws he wants changed. > [@](#): > > and if he were incarcerated afterwards, that would be his rallying cry. Not every cause requires a martyr to be successful. > [@](#): > > I went to jail to change the law- vs - I fled to Russia to avoid being charged with the crime I committed. Eh, either the info he released is enough to convince people to change the law or it isn’t. His being incarcerated doesn’t change what was in the documents he handed out one way or another. People will find it convincing or not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/56 "2013-12-16T15:21:10Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Eh, either the info he released is enough to convince people to change the law or it isn’t. His being incarcerated doesn’t change what was in the documents he handed out one way or another. People will find it convincing or not. True on Vulcan, but we’re on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/57 "2013-12-16T17:01:12Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I don’t remember the threat of torture hanging over her head for her “crimes”. I don’t recall any threats to have Ed Snowden tortured, either. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/58 "2013-12-16T17:10:27Z")
I think they’re referring to the treatment Bradley Manning received while in pre-trial detention. Honestly, I think it’s a reasonable fear. For myself, I think Snowden acted as he should. But I’m in favor of disclosure and believe that government surveillance - at the level it’s being practiced - is out of control. Snowden acting as he did - taking the information, skipping the country, and then releasing it to the press - strikes me as a reasonable response for a person who has lost faith that his government will play by any consistent rules. Had he stayed here he’d get some action in the media, but he’s gotten a lot more attention to his concerns his way. Plus, it got the information outside the USA where there are limited things the government could do to retrieve it or even influence those who have it. As for the deal? I’d say that’s sort of silly. Say he accepts and comes in from the cold…the best he could tell the NSA is WHAT he took and I’d be astonished if the NSA doesn’t already know that. He can’t promise to bring it all back. It’s out in the world, now. The Guardian isn’t going to magically stop reporting on it on Snowden’s say-so. That’s just unreasonable. Once that info was out there, it’s out there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/59 "2013-12-16T17:15:49Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I don’t remember the threat of torture hanging over her head for her “crimes”. Really? You never heard of physical violence up to and including lynchings for “uppity” Negroes? But I think the use of “torture” wrt to Snowdon is overdone. He’ll be in the civilian court system-- he’s not going to be sent to Guantanamo. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/60 "2013-12-16T17:31:37Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I think they’re referring to the treatment Bradley Manning received while in pre-trial detention. Honestly, I think it’s a reasonable fear. Manning was in a military prison. Snowden, if he did his duty and turned himself in, would be detained in a civilian facility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=4)