# NSA considering an amnesty for Edward Snowden ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401 "2013-12-15T19:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/81 "2013-12-16T22:04:23Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Sailor, I’m giving you a warning for this post. It is specifically forbidden to accuse another post of lying in Great Debates. Please don’t do so again. So I get a warning but the poster who insulted me with a lie, because it is in fact a lie, is not even mentioned? “Why do you hate America?” is now the standard argument for anyone who disagrees with what the government is doing? This is ridiculous. I think I’ll take a break. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/82 "2013-12-16T22:14:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s a paywall on that article, **John**. That was the NYT. [This is the USA Today article.](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/16/judge-nsa-surveillance-fourth-amendment/4041995/) Ugh… I had to link to USAToday… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/83 "2013-12-16T22:17:19Z")
Is it the position of the vilifiers of Snowden on this board that the American public had no business knowing the extent to which their government had been spying on them? Even if such surveillance, [as one federal judge has opined](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/national-security-agency-phones-judge-101203.html), “appears to violate the Fourth Amendment ban on unreasonable searches and seizures”. Would they really have wished to remain unaware of such gross invasions of the privacy of US citizens? Of their privacy? If so then by all means excoriate Edward Snowden. If the answer however to any of these questions is no then you should be thanking the guy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/84 "2013-12-16T22:21:34Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Is it the position of the vilifiers of Snowden on this board that the American public had no business knowing the extent to which their government had been spying on them? Even if such surveillance, [as one federal judge has opined](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/national-security-agency-phones-judge-101203.html), “appears to violate the Fourth Amendment ban on unreasonable searches and seizures”. Would they really have wished to remain unaware of such gross invasions of the privacy of US citizens? Of their privacy? If so then by all means excoriate Edward Snowden. If the answer however to any of these questions is no then you should be thanking the guy. I can only speak for myself, but this just shows that had Snowdon tried to work through normal channels (which he NEVER tried to do for even a second), that he had a good chance of succeeding. There are other ways of bringing wrong-dong to light besides doing a data dump of classified information and then fleeing to Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/85 "2013-12-16T23:04:44Z")
Thanks, **John**. Your sacrifice will not be forgotten. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > My biggest problem with Snowdon is not that he fled, but that he made absolutely no attempt to fix the system by going thru legal channels. He took the law into his own hands. If you really think we live is such a repressive society, you should be advocating armed resistance. If I believed half of what some people in this thread are posting, I’d have pitchfork in hand as we type. I don’t think one has to believe in a particularly repressive society to think Snowden was taking serious risks with his life in doing what he did. Does the government employ people who are willing to kill? Yes. Does the government employ people who are corrupt? Yes. Is there a possibility that someone at the middle of that Venn diagram might be working at the NSA and not be happy about someone planning to blowing the whistle on their illegal spying operation? I don’t think it’s _likely_, but it’s not so unlikely I’d be willing to risk my life on it. Likewise, I don’t have to believe that Snowden is going to be dragged off to some medieval dungeon to be broken on the rack, to recognize that American prison are often hellholes, and it wouldn’t take much for a guard to decide to “teach the traitor a lesson” and look the other way while I’m gangraped in the prison shower, followed by locking me away in solitary for ten years “for my own protection.” As for going through legal channels, I’m not entirely sure what you’re suggested. Should he have not stolen the stuff, and just kept bothering people higher and higher in his org chart until he found someone who gave a shit? Because at a certain point, people are going to realize that you’re making a fuss, and remove your access to the evidence of lawbreaking. Or are you saying he should have stolen it, and taken it straight to a judge? Would that work? If Snowden shows up in a courtroom and says, “I have evidence that the government is breaking the law, and here’s the proof,” the first thing the government is going to do is say, “Due to national security concerns, that evidence is top secret, and cannot be revealed in court.” If the judge listens to them, your evidence disappears down a black hole, and you’re still up on espionage charges. And I’m not even entirely certain a judge can refuse to listen to them. Is there a clear cut legal answer to that? What’s the precedent? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/86 "2013-12-16T23:06:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What benefit did it get when it tortured Chelsea Manning? > > At this point? None. If they could have done it before he released his information? > > Seriously? > > _Seriously?_ Just… just think about what you just wrote for five minutes. > > In 1919, Will Brown was charged with armed robbery of a white woman. He was dragged out the courthouse by a mob, beaten unconscious, lynched, riddled with bullets, then burned. [People openly sold postcards of the event, for 10 cents a pop.](http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0700/media/0701_013402.jpg) > > You’re really just about the last person to be accusing other people of poor logic on this subject. The government didn’t torture Manning. He was mentally ill and suicidal - they were protecting him from himself, for his own good. And i’d say our attitudes as a society towards lynching have changes a bit in the last 95 years. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/87 "2013-12-16T23:09:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, he’s pretty obviously not. He’s pointing out that the idea that the only way to resist an unjust law is by letting yourself be prosecuted by it is a spectacularly stupid concept, and is demonstrating that by comparing it to an extreme example where adherence to your “principle” would clearly be counter-productive. The US in 2013 is not a banana republic where people can be tortured or executed for speaking out and the only way to oppose the system is by fleeing the country. We have functioning courts and a functioning rule of law, and behavior like Snowden’s serves only to undermine the public good, not safeguard it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/88 "2013-12-16T23:10:53Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Is it the position of the vilifiers of Snowden on this board that the American public had no business knowing the extent to which their government had been spying on them? Even if such surveillance, [as one federal judge has opined](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/national-security-agency-phones-judge-101203.html), “appears to violate the Fourth Amendment ban on unreasonable searches and seizures”. Would they really have wished to remain unaware of such gross invasions of the privacy of US citizens? Of their privacy? If so then by all means excoriate Edward Snowden. If the answer however to any of these questions is no then you should be thanking the guy. Yes. It is not the role of a private citizen to decide what should or shouldn’t be classified. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/89 "2013-12-16T23:12:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can only speak for myself, but this just shows that had Snowdon tried to work through normal channels (which he NEVER tried to do for even a second), that he had a good chance of succeeding. That says nothing good about you. The normal channels would require that he go via a known felon, who committed felonies _specifically_ to subvert the oversight that was supposed to stop the NSA from doing bullshit like this. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/90 "2013-12-16T23:31:44Z")
Who is this felon you are referring to? Private Manning isn’t in the reporting chain of command. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/91 "2013-12-16T23:37:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The government didn’t torture Manning. He was mentally ill and suicidal - they were protecting him from himself, for his own good. [Bullshit.](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/01/1166253/-The-Torture-Techniques-Used-on-Bradley-Manning) The army’s treatment of Manning was deliberately cruel and done against the advice of his psychologist. > [@](#): > > And i’d say our attitudes as a society towards lynching have changes a bit in the last 95 years. You asked, “When in the past have Americans cheered for someone to be murdered in prison without a trial?” There’s your answer, and it didn’t stop in 1919. It’s something Americans were still doing within living memory. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/92 "2013-12-16T23:41:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The US in 2013 is not a banana republic where people can be tortured or executed for speaking out and the only way to oppose the system is by fleeing the country. Yeah, and I’d like to keep it that way. One way of preventing that is by not having an arm of the government devoted to spying on its own citizens - which is one of the classic hallmarks of a banana republic. Thanks to Snowden, we’re a step further away from that than we were a few years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/93 "2013-12-16T23:41:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Bullshit.](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/01/1166253/-The-Torture-Techniques-Used-on-Bradley-Manning) The army’s treatment of Manning was deliberately cruel and done against the advice of his psychologist. I see nothing in that article that’s cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/94 "2013-12-16T23:42:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, and I’d like to keep it that way. One way of preventing that is by not having an arm of the government devoted to spying on its own citizens - which is one of the classic hallmarks of a banana republic. Thanks to Snowden, we’re a step further away from that than we were a few years ago. How many American casualties due to terrorist strikes we didn’t learn about in time is worth it for the sake of knowing that your emails aren’t being archived in a government file where nobody will ever read them anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/95 "2013-12-16T23:50:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How many American casualties due to terrorist strikes we didn’t learn about in time is worth it for the sake of knowing that your emails aren’t being archived in a government file where nobody will ever read them anyway? How many times can the government justify breaking the law by shouting “Terrorists!” at us before it stops working? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/96 "2013-12-16T23:56:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How many times can the government justify breaking the law by shouting “Terrorists!” at us before it stops working? The government hasn’t been breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/97 "2013-12-16T23:58:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The government hasn’t been breaking the law. [This judge says you’re wrong.](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/16/judge-nsa-surveillance-fourth-amendment/4041995/) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/98 "2013-12-16T23:59:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Who is this felon you are referring to? Private Manning isn’t in the reporting chain of command. :rolleyes: The head of the NSA lied to congress to conceal his agency’s actions. Doing so is a felony under US law. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/99 "2013-12-17T00:06:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [This judge says you’re wrong.](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/16/judge-nsa-surveillance-fourth-amendment/4041995/) > [@](#): > > A federal judge ruled Monday that the National Security Agency’s controversial surveillance program that collects millions of Americans’ telephone records may be unconstitutional. No, he doesn’t say the government is breaking the law. He says that the law which allows them to run the program _may_ be unconstitutional. It’s not illegal to execute a law which is subsequently found to be unconstitutional - Lawrence v. Kansas didn’t mean that every prosecutor who had previously charged someone with sodomy was now a criminal. In any event, the judge immediately suspended his own order pending relitigation before a higher court, which may take a different interpretation or rule that the law is fully constitutional anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/100 "2013-12-17T00:08:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > :rolleyes: The head of the NSA lied to congress to conceal his agency’s actions. Doing so is a felony under US law. It would also have been a felony under US law for him to reveal classified information on live television. You really ought to be blaming the Congressman for ordering him to answer a question he legally couldn’t. Nor is one man (who hasn’t been prosecuted either) synonymous with “the government”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=6)