# NSA considering an amnesty for Edward Snowden ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401 "2013-12-15T19:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/121 "2013-12-17T04:59:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because the claim that he’s deeply morally concerned about government spying falls flat on its face when he’s accepting charity from a country that does much worse things openly than anything he accuses the US of doing in secret. It’s clear that his motivations aren’t what he claims they are. Only if his motivation is being deeply concerned about government spying in general. I, for example, don’t really care about Russian government spying on Russian citizens. I do care about US government spying on US citizens. Maybe Snowden feels the same. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/122 "2013-12-17T05:15:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Only if his motivation is being deeply concerned about government spying in general. I, for example, don’t really care about Russian government spying on Russian citizens. I do care about US government spying on US citizens. Maybe Snowden feels the same. Well, it’s good to know that your concern for human rights and privacy stops at our borders. Snowden may or may not feel the same way. We won’t know until after the Russian government decides that paying his room and board isn’t worth the propaganda value of sticking it to the US anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/123 "2013-12-17T05:19:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because the claim that he’s deeply morally concerned about government spying falls flat on its face when he’s accepting charity from a country that does much worse things openly than anything he accuses the US of doing in secret. It’s clear that his motivations aren’t what he claims they are. This is absolutely ridiculous. Snowden is not in a position to do anything about human rights abuses in Russia. He can do something about civil rights abuses in the US. The fact that Russia, of all places, was the only place willing to offer him haven isn’t an indictment of Snowden, it’s an indictment of western democracies. > [@](#): > > Snowden may or may not feel the same way. We won’t know until after the Russian government decides that paying his room and board isn’t worth the propaganda value of sticking it to the US anymore. You think Snowden isn’t aware that his meal ticket has a very short duration in Russia? The man’s utterly destroyed his life over this, and he knows it - has known it, since before he got on to that plane to Hong Kong. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/124 "2013-12-17T05:22:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is absolutely ridiculous. Snowden is not in a position to do anything about human rights abuses in Russia. He can do something about civil rights abuses in the US. The fact that Russia, of all places, was the only place willing to offer him haven isn’t an indictment of Snowden, it’s an indictment of western democracies. The fact that he _sought_ a “haven” is an indictment of Snowden. > [@](#): > > The man’s utterly destroyed his life over this, and he knows it - has known it, since before he got on to that plane to Hong Kong. The man’s made himself an international superstar and cause celebre for anti-government types worldwide. Which again, judging from his behavior, was his goal all along. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/125 "2013-12-17T05:24:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The man’s made himself an international superstar and cause celebre for anti-government types worldwide. Which again, judging from his behavior, was his goal all along. He gets to spend the rest of his life _in Moscow_. If he’s _lucky._ God forbid you should ever have to make that kind of sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/126 "2013-12-17T05:27:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > He gets to spend the rest of his life _in Moscow_. If he’s _lucky._ Where he gets to lounge around rent-free, without having to work, his family can come visit him any time, and he can sit back and send out self-righteous press releases about how he was right all along. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/127 "2013-12-17T10:23:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I wouldn’t engage in behavior liable to land me in circumstances where I’d be subject to that kind of discipline. which is why you’re a guy on the Internet and Snowden is changing ther rules of intelligence gathering and, through that, prettymuch the world we live in. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/128 "2013-12-17T10:35:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Where he gets to lounge around rent-free, without having to work, his family can come visit him any time, and he can sit back and send out self-righteous press releases about how he was right all along. You forgot the hot Russian babes Putin sends over every Friday. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/129 "2013-12-17T12:57:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’d prefer that Manning had killed himself in prison, then? Our options, ladies and gentlemen, are: 1. Torture prisoners through sleep deprivation and stress positions while they’re in solitary confinement; or 2. Hoping they commit suicide in prison. If I ever need to explain to someone what an excluded middle is, this will be the example I choose. The idea that this was a cowardly act is absurd; the idea that somehow his seeking asylum negates what he did is unfounded; the idea that only going through the legal channels to solve the problem is not in keeping with our nation’s history, a history rife with people that have broken unjust laws even before our nation existed. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/130 "2013-12-17T15:01:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can only speak for myself, but this just shows that had Snowdon tried to work through normal channels (which he NEVER tried to do for even a second), that he had a good chance of succeeding. Reality Says: [**BZZZZZTTTT!!**](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/) > [@](#): > > Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe belong to a select fraternity: the NSA officials who paved the way. > > For years, the three whistle-blowers had told anyone who would listen that the NSA collects huge swaths of communications data from U.S. citizens. They had spent decades in the top ranks of the agency, designing and managing the very data-collection systems they say have been turned against Americans. When they became convinced that fundamental constitutional rights were being violated, they complained first to their superiors, then to federal investigators, congressional oversight committees and, finally, to the news media… > > **Q:** Did Edward Snowden do the right thing in going public? > > **William Binney:** We tried to stay for the better part of seven years inside the government trying to get the government to recognize the unconstitutional, illegal activity that they were doing and openly admit that and devise certain ways that would be constitutionally and legally acceptable to achieve the ends they were really after. And that just failed totally because no one in Congress or — we couldn’t get anybody in the courts, and certainly the Department of Justice and inspector general’s office didn’t pay any attention to it. And all of the efforts we made just produced no change whatsoever. All it did was continue to get worse and expand. > > **Q:** So Snowden did the right thing? > > **Binney:** Yes, I think he did… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/131 "2013-12-17T15:05:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How many American casualties due to terrorist strikes we didn’t learn about in time is worth it for the sake of knowing that your emails aren’t being archived in a government file where nobody will ever read them anyway? First, let’s ask how many casualties _you’re_ willing to accept as a result of the government sweeping up so much noise that it ignores clear signals. We’ll start with the Boston Marathon casualty list and add to it as people chime in with other examples… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/132 "2013-12-17T15:08:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The government hasn’t been breaking the law. [Lying under oath](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/03/dni-clapper-could-be-investigated-for-perjury) isn’t breaking the law? Good to know before I have to start working on my 2013 tax return… > [@Smapti](#): > > It would also have been a felony under US law for him to reveal classified information on live television. You really ought to be blaming the Congressman for ordering him to answer a question he legally couldn’t. Which of the words “I”, “cannot”, “answer”, “this”, “question”, “for”, “reasons”, “of”, “national”, or “security” is on the FCC’s Naughty List? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/133 "2013-12-17T15:17:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, it’s good to know that your concern for human rights and privacy stops at our borders. In other words, he has a rational and realistic attitude [QUOTE=John Quincy Adams] [America] is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/134 "2013-12-17T17:24:44Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Which of the words “I”, “cannot”, “answer”, “this”, “question”, “for”, “reasons”, “of”, “national”, or “security” is on the FCC’s Naughty List? All of them, since any answer other than “No” is an admission that the answer is not “no”, and thus an illegal exposure of classified information. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/135 "2013-12-17T17:26:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Our options, ladies and gentlemen, are: > > 1. Torture prisoners through sleep deprivation and stress positions while they’re in solitary confinement; or > 2. Hoping they commit suicide in prison. > > If I ever need to explain to someone what an excluded middle is, this will be the example I choose. Sleep deprivation and stress positions aren’t torture. It’s called “being in the Army”. > [@](#): > > The idea that this was a cowardly act is absurd; the idea that somehow his seeking asylum negates what he did is unfounded; the idea that only going through the legal channels to solve the problem is not in keeping with our nation’s history, a history rife with people that have broken unjust laws even before our nation existed. The Espionage Act is an “unjust law” now? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/136 "2013-12-17T17:28:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All of them, since any answer other than “No” is an admission that the answer is not “no”, and thus an illegal exposure of classified information. Nonsense. That’s why it’s SOP to give “no comment” answers for such questions even if the actual answer would be innocuous. Language like “I can neither affirm nor deny” is commonly used in these situations. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/137 "2013-12-17T17:42:08Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Nonsense. That’s why it’s SOP to give “no comment” answers for such questions even if the actual answer would be innocuous. Language like “I can neither affirm nor deny” is commonly used in these situations. “I can neither affirm nor deny” is, of course, commonly understood as a euphemism for “Yes, but you didn’t hear it from me”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/138 "2013-12-17T17:46:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “I can neither affirm nor deny” is, of course, commonly understood as a euphemism for “Yes, but you didn’t hear it from me”. What does this have to do with anything? It doesn’t even pretend to rebut the demonstration that your “perjury trap” argument is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/139 "2013-12-17T18:00:31Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > What does this have to do with anything? It doesn’t even pretend to rebut the demonstration that your “perjury trap” argument is nonsense. It’s quite simple. The director was asked a question where his only options were to say “No”, or to say something other than “no” which would thereby indicate that “no” was not the correct answer. He was therefore being forced to either lie, or expose classified information to the public. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/140 "2013-12-17T18:03:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s quite simple. The director was asked a question where his only options were to say “No”, or to say something other than “no” which would thereby indicate that “no” was not the correct answer. He was therefore being forced to either lie, or expose classified information to the public. Once again “I can neither confirm nor deny” means that the speaker cannot confirm nor deny, and exposes no information whatsoever. Your claim that something else is “indicated” is as baseless as a cad’s claim that “no” actually meant “yes” because the lady was wearing a low-cut blouse and short skirt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=8)