# NSA considering an amnesty for Edward Snowden ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401 "2013-12-15T19:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/161 "2013-12-17T19:16:44Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Then again, if he and his agency had put some effort into doing their jobs within the confines of the law the whole matter would have been avoided. This isn’t a question of whether the NSA’s program was legal. It _was_ legal. It’s a question of one man arbitrarily deciding that it _oughtn’t_ be, and committing treason in order to undermine it. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/162 "2013-12-17T19:33:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In our society, we have a well-established system that decides the validity of laws as provided by the Constitution. Any law approved by the people through their representatives and duly signed into law (or by referendum as the case may be at the state level) is valid until either repealed or the courts strike it down. Right, so you would have been a slave trader, you would have prosecuted gays, you would have abstained from alcohol for 13 years, etc. I get where you’re coming from now. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/163 "2013-12-17T19:46:47Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Right, so you would have been a slave trader, you would have prosecuted gays, you would have abstained from alcohol for 13 years, etc. > > I get where you’re coming from now. I’m not aware of any law that existed that would have _required_ me to trade slaves, and I’m not a prosecutor so the second would never have come up for me, but yes to the third. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/164 "2013-12-17T19:56:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not aware of any law that existed that would have _required_ me to trade slaves Well, then, how about the laws requiring assistance in capturing and returning fugitive slaves? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/165 "2013-12-17T20:36:08Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, then, how about the laws requiring assistance in capturing and returning fugitive slaves? Yes, because I’d prefer not to go to jail. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/166 "2013-12-17T21:00:06Z")
So you don’t particularly have a side in this issue, or any issue for that matter; you will side with the prosecution of law of the US regardless of other factors. Okay. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/167 "2013-12-17T21:12:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, because I’d prefer not to go to jail. Isn’t that cowardly? Per Snowden, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/168 "2013-12-17T21:13:24Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > So you don’t particularly have a side in this issue, or any issue for that matter; you will side with the prosecution of law of the US regardless of other factors. Okay. What I personally believe is irrelevant to what the law _is_. As a citizen of a country with a functioning rule of law, it’s my obligation to respect and abide by those laws. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/169 "2013-12-17T21:15:14Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Isn’t that cowardly? Per Snowden, I mean. No. Snowden is a coward for running away from the consequences of his actions. I’m perfectly capable of facing the consequences of my actions, because I don’t engage in actions that would have consequences I’d need to run away from. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/170 "2013-12-17T21:18:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No. Snowden is a coward for running away from the consequences of his actions. I’m perfectly capable of facing the consequences of my actions, because I don’t engage in actions that would have consequences I’d need to run away from. But you don’t engage in those actions because you don’t want to face those consequences. I’ll admit i’m assuming for the basis of this argument that you’re against slavery. So if you say that you would assist in the capture and return of fugitive slaves were that the law, isn’t it cowardly to do so, assuming you’re against slavery, if you’re doing so on the basis that you don’t want to go to jail? Isn’t that running away from your convictions? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/171 "2013-12-17T21:20:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What I personally believe is irrelevant to what the law _is_. As a citizen of a country with a functioning rule of law, it’s my obligation to respect and abide by those laws. That’s one way to make things simple… [QUOTE=Isaac Asimov] “What is your definition of justice?” “Justice, Elijah, is that which exists when all the laws are enforced.” Fastolfe nodded. “A good definition, Mr Baley, for a robot. The desire to see all laws enforced has been built into R. Daneel, now. Justice is a very concrete term to him since it is based on law enforcement. A human can recognise that, on the basis of an abstract moral code, some laws may be bad ones, and their enforcement unjust. What do you say, R. Daneel?’” “An unjust law,” said R. Daneel evenly, “is a contradiction in terms.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/172 "2013-12-17T21:27:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What I personally believe is irrelevant to what the law _is_. As a citizen of a country with a functioning rule of law, it’s my obligation to respect and abide by those laws. Believe me, I understand. It makes you very, very scary but hey ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/173 "2013-12-17T22:59:13Z")
Ok, so **Smapti** is the poster boy for lawful neutral. Can we get back to the real discussion? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/174 "2013-12-17T23:36:58Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > The world you’re defining is one where a subset of the American government - the scary part with spies and weapons - is able to hold themselves above accountability. No, this is not the case. The various NSA operations under discussion here, and revealed by Snowdon, had been vetted by the FISA court and/or had been considered to be allowable under the precedent established in _Smith v. Maryland_. [Here is the relevant Wiki paragraph](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court#2013_NSA_controversy) which contains cites. Whatever you think of FISA and its court, and regardless of your take on _Smith v. Maryland_, what was being done was hardly “hold[ing] themselves above accountability”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/175 "2013-12-18T00:24:07Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Whatever you think of FISA and its court, and regardless of your take on _Smith v. Maryland_, what was being done was hardly “hold[ing] themselves above accountability”. An outfit that hears only the agency’s side of the case isn’t a court, it’s a Discover Card “We Treat You Like You Treat You” commercial. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/176 "2013-12-18T14:22:52Z")
[The idea is gaining traction](http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/tech-executives-to-obama-nsa-spying-revelations-are-threatening-business/2013/12/17/6569b226-6734-11e3-a0b9-249bbb34602c_story.html) among the movers and shakers: > [@](#): > > Leaders of the nation’s biggest technology firms warned President Obama during a lengthy meeting at the White House on Tuesday that National Security Agency spying programs are damaging their reputations and could harm the broader economy. > > Cisco Systems has said it is seeing customers, especially overseas, back away from American-branded technology after documents revealed that the NSA enlisted tech firms and secretly tapped into their data hubs around the world as the agency pursued terrorism suspects. Companies such as IBM, AT&T and Verizon Communications are facing angry shareholders, some of whom have filed lawsuits demanding that the companies disclose their participation in NSA intelligence programs… > > One participant suggested the president pardon Snowden… ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/177 "2013-12-18T15:35:18Z")
I love the contrast between Merkel’s references to the STASI and the classically US amoral response. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/178 "2013-12-18T18:58:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > North Korea doesn’t have a functioning rule of law, nor do its citizens have the right to redress. The US does. > > The fact that Snowden fled US justice doesn’t mean he ceases to be a criminal - he’s simply a criminal under the protection of a rogue state that wants to embarrass the US. You seem unable to take an internationalist perspective. Many people who were criminals in other jurisdictions have been given protection by the US. Do you consider these people to be criminals? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/179 "2013-12-18T19:02:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In our society, we have a well-established system that decides the validity of laws as provided by the Constitution. Any law approved by the people through their representatives and duly signed into law (or by referendum as the case may be at the state level) is valid until either repealed or the courts strike it down. This is such a narrow, one dimensional and simplistic view of the law, that I do not believe that it is being suggested as a rational response here. I suspect that you would have fitted well into many jurisdictions that believe in the absolute validity of local law. Nazi Germany, Cambodia in the Sixties and Seventies, North Korea now and many more have well-established systems approved by a constitution. I suspect that you would also have been quite happy there considering your statist views. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401/180 "2013-12-18T19:05:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What I personally believe is irrelevant to what the law _is_. As a citizen of a country with a functioning rule of law, it’s my obligation to respect and abide by those laws. Really? How old are you. This sounds like a lily white in Sociology 101. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nsa-considering-an-amnesty-for-edward-snowden/676401.md?page=10)