# Nuclear attack question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 26, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617 "2014-03-26T18:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/21 "2014-03-27T01:02:09Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > In the case of the UK, I believe the nuclear subs have, in a special locked safe, a [letter](http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_spectator/2009/01/the_letter_of_last_resort.html) from the PM telling them what to do in the event that the UK command structure is wiped out in a nuclear attack. I would be very surprised if the US does not have something similar, if rather less romantic. Arthur C. Clarke wrote a story based on this idea “The Last Command” [The Last Command (short story) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Command_(short_story)), by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/22 "2014-03-27T01:40:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > . I hope and expect that the launch codes are necessary not only to authorize an attack, but to enable it. > > Regards, > Shodan There must be multiple copies of these codes, somewhere. Of course, where those copies are and how they are stored is presumably a deep, dark secret - and it should be! In “command and control”, it is mentioned that there’s a dedicated computer network for exchanging launch orders that uses computers that look like 10 year old desktop PCs in ruggedized boxes. Presumably, there’s extra printouts of the codes stored in various safes in various bunkers or something similar. This is a major issue with a PAL system, of course : if all copies of the codes are vaporized, it would be difficult to use the nukes. That’s why the original code was all 0s. In any case, if the President is dead OR refuses to launch a counterattack, and other officers with access to the codes decide to break the rules, there probably is not anything that physically stops them from opening the safes that have the codes and using them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/23 "2014-03-27T02:16:35Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Ostensibly, no. The President (or his or her locum in the line of succession) is the National Command Authority and has the only authority to release nuclear weapons to theater or ICBM wing commanders for use. But there’s an interesting question here. The Constitution says the President is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. But Congress has the sole power to declare war. And the Supreme Court has said _“We ain’t touching this one.”_ So what happens if Congress declares war on Russia and the President still refuses to attack? Could Congress tell the President _“It’s your job to execute the laws we enact. We declared war so you have to start fighting.”_? Could the President respond _“I’m the Commander-in-Chief. You can declare a war but you can’t tell me how to conduct it.”_? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/24 "2014-03-27T02:19:07Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > The whole “end of humanity” in a nuclear war is just a bunch of scare mongering propaganda left over from the Cold War. According to one site, the USSR had over 8000 nuclear weapons. I feel like even 100 nuclear weapons dropped on the largest population centers in the US would totally fuck shit up. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/25 "2014-03-27T02:31:11Z")
While yeah, I don’t want to mess the Earth any worse than what the bad guys had done, I couldn’t stomach the thought of me dying and letting the bad guys take over everything. Nah, nuke 'em back. Nuke everyone who supports them. Nuke anyone who’s happy for them. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/26 "2014-03-27T03:22:31Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I feel like even 100 nuclear weapons dropped on the largest population centers in the US would totally fuck shit up. [Nuclear Survival by States.](http://www.ki4u.com/webpal/d_resources/list.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/27 "2014-03-27T05:11:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So what happens if Congress declares war on Russia and the President still refuses to attack? Could Congress tell the President _“It’s your job to execute the laws we enact. We declared war so you have to start fighting.”_? Could the President respond _“I’m the Commander-in-Chief. You can declare a war but you can’t tell me how to conduct it.”_? First of all, Congress passes (statute) laws which enables the executive branch to enforce. Congress can compel people (including the President) to testify before it, but cannot tell the President to do any particular thing. When Congress “declares war” they provide authorization and/or funding for the President and Secretary of Defense to prosecute a war or “military engagement” (as every conflict since World War II has been). Congress does not dictate how the war is prosecuted or any particular timetable or strategy except in the most general terms of objectives and scope. Second, Assured Destruction (the “mutual” was added later by critics) is a deterrence theory, not a war strategy. The applicability and success of it has been subject to much debate, but the observation that “MAD prevented war” is an argument of _post hoc ergo propter hoc_. In fact, the fundamental tenets of the game theory of Assured Destruction have never been met in reality and the actual situation is far more complex that the simplified game theory would suggest. Third, while the worst projections of the effects of global nuclear war–genocide, persistent “nuclear winter”, et cetera–are certainly exaggerated, a full scale exchange would certainly set back the developed world substantially in terms of both industrial and scientific capability. Even if the scope of war were limited–say, the United States, the Soviet Union, and the Peoples Republic of China were essentially destroyed as nations, but Central and Western Europe, South America, and the Pacific Rim remained intact–the landscape of modern civilization would be dramatically altered. In a more extreme case, all of civilization could be set back by centuries as innovations which are deponent upon global trade are undermined and societies regress to more primitive isolates. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/28 "2014-03-27T14:12:30Z")
If the question is: “We’ve been attacked. The President, who is alive, in communication, coherent, and sane, has ordered no retaliation. Can generals override that and legally counterattack anyway?” then the answer is obviously no. If the Commander-in-Chief says don’t attack, then attacking is disobeying orders in wartime. Now, the other question, that of “What would realistically happen in such a situation?” is more interesting and less clear. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/29 "2014-03-27T14:55:57Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > The question presumes that an aging and questionably competent Russian military could launch a surprise attack upon the US. This has always been doubtful as for many years the Russians (formerly known as the Soviets) used liquid field propelled missiles which cannot be stored with their fuel inside of them (it’s too corrosive). Even when the Russian began the switch to solid fuel propellants, there was always the question of whether their missiles wouldn’t explode upon launch rather than hit their US targets. > > It’s likely that the Russians even today could field more than a “minor” nuclear strike without multiple days worth of notice and without alerting the far superior electronic data collection systems of the US. The President and the DoD would be alerted to the fact that the Russian were up to something and they might respond by launching one or more pre-emptive strikes to “discourage” them from doing anything. > > If the President lost his nerve (it could possibly happen) there’s no reason to believe that this event would be seen by the VP (who may not be as apprehensive) as something which required invoking the 25th Amendment and removing him from office. It’s not as if there would be too much interference with this as it was clear that not responding to a potential attack could be viewed as the POTUS losing the ability to maintain his office. > > It’s however a stretch to believe that the reason a POTUS would not avenge an attack against US soil would be his belief that everything was lost anyway. Regardless of what he thought, it’s likely that if he presented that opinion to his military commanders that they would remove him from office and engage the Russians on their own. Or assist whatever government official was next in the line of succession in invoking the 25th. > > A Russian sneak attack on more than minor scale is currently unthinkable as it would take days to assemble and it might invite a US pre-emptive response to prevent it. Errrr…SS18 and SS19, both are liquid fuelled and both have response time measured in minutes. I am fairly certain that they each contain storable liquids, which permits missiles to be fuelled and on alert. Delta III and IV class subs have SS-N-18, which can also be launched quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/30 "2014-03-27T16:02:35Z")
The decision to launch a full scale attack would come even before the first missile from Russia landed on American soil. In a surprise attack I would think today’s fence sitting (which is okay with me in places like Syria or Ukraine) anyway today’s presidential powers would not retaliate if … I say if the Presidential power of todays Russia picked up the red phone and said, “do not retaliate” “If you launch missiles we will finish you off with our hidden submarines off your coast and of course our hidden mobile launchers are waiting for their orders” Putin (president for life)“Give up or face even worse punishment” I love President Obama, but I think he would say, “Hold on there partner can’t we talk about this” I served on FBM submarines in the cold war and I have no doubt in my mind that we would’ve done our job of launching 16 nuclear tipped missiles with up to 3 independently targeted warheads on each one at the offending party … if that is … if we received a message from the President of the United States to do so, but guess who sends that message? The Joint Chiefs of Staff and if they somehow in a moment of weakness decided to go it alone … there is no doubt in my mind that that could be done with the final command to launch coming from Norad in Colorado which would’ve reported it to the white house in the first place. Something called a code is needed also, but that’s another question … Yes I think it could be done … but done in the blink of an eye ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/31 "2014-03-27T16:52:33Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > There would be millions of people left; millions of people who are well and thoroughly fucked. Financial, military, civil, power, and manufacturing centers gone. The midwest food producing regions un-habitable due to radiation. Seems pretty grim. Do you seriously think Russia would squander its arsenal nuking cornfields? The list of people who would be fucked would go something like this: (1) People in or around Washington, DC or Alexandria, VA. Because presumably the war would begin with a decapitation strike againt the seat of US government. (2) People in or around major US military bases. If you live in Colorado Springs, you can kiss your ass goodbye because Chyene Mountain and the Air Force Academy are in your backyard. Much of the US’ military might is already deployed oversees, so the value of your typical army base in Texas or wherever is actually rather low. OTOH, a number of foreign locations would get hit, because they have US bases that would probably be used as front-line bases. Afghanistan, South Korea, Okinawa, and Diego Garcia would all have problems. (3) People in or around NYC, because Wall Street would be a likely target. After this, you’re really just wasting nukes that you might well need later. Millions would die, for sure, but for the majority of American life would go on. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/32 "2014-03-27T17:00:21Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Do you seriously think Russia would squander its arsenal nuking cornfields? Yeah, because I’m that much of a dipshit to think that empty cornfields are great targets. Or, you could think about it for a minute. > [@Diceman](#): > > (2) People in or around major US military bases. If you live in Colorado Springs, you can kiss your ass goodbye because Chyene Mountain and the Air Force Academy are in your backyard. There are still ICBMs in the Dakotas, Colorado, Nebraska, Montana. Those are prime targets for a first strike. Check which way the wind will scatter fallout from strikes on these silos. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/33 "2014-03-27T17:25:27Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Check which way the wind will scatter fallout from strikes on these silos. During the Cold War, there was a commonly-held belief that the USSR would nuke targets not only for their civilian/military value, but to maximize the spread of nuclear fallout via prevailing winds. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/34 "2014-03-27T18:00:13Z")
I would hope our president would choose to not launch but I doubt he could withstand the pressure. He would have a short time to make the call and everyone around him will probably be very surprised if he balks. I am pinning my hopes on the Russian missles having a high dud rate. Remember, they only got four out of the five Olympic rings to open, so there’s hope. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/35 "2014-03-27T18:24:51Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Do you seriously think Russia would squander its arsenal nuking cornfields? > > The list of people who would be fucked would go something like this: > > (1) People in or around Washington, DC or Alexandria, VA. Because presumably the war would begin with a decapitation strike againt the seat of US government. > > (2) People in or around major US military bases. If you live in Colorado Springs, you can kiss your ass goodbye because Chyene Mountain and the Air Force Academy are in your backyard. Much of the US’ military might is already deployed oversees, so the value of your typical army base in Texas or wherever is actually rather low. OTOH, a number of foreign locations would get hit, because they have US bases that would probably be used as front-line bases. Afghanistan, South Korea, Okinawa, and Diego Garcia would all have problems. > > (3) People in or around NYC, because Wall Street would be a likely target. > > After this, you’re really just wasting nukes that you might well need later. Millions would die, for sure, but for the majority of American life would go on. How is ‘American Life’ going to go on with every circuit in the country EMPed to hell? No electricity, no cars older than 1970 (?) It would be nationwide Katrina X1000. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/36 "2014-03-27T19:24:48Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > During the Cold War, there was a commonly-held belief that the USSR would nuke targets not only for their civilian/military value, but to maximize the spread of nuclear fallout via prevailing winds. Except that this isn’t 1950; the world is different today. Everything Russia does, it has to do while looking over its shoulder at China. It really can’t aford to blow its entire nuclear arsenal in an absurd attempt to nuke the US into a parking lot. If it did so, there’s about a 99% chance China would move into Siberia. Because what’s Russia going to do to stop them now that they wasted all their ICBM’s? No, any strike on the US would, of necessity, need to be a limited one. The realpolitic in the 21st century doesn’t give them the luxury of that old MAD bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/37 "2014-03-27T20:38:32Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > How is ‘American Life’ going to go on with every circuit in the country EMPed to hell? No electricity, no cars older than 1970 (?) It would be nationwide Katrina X1000. I can never find myself taking EMP seriously. It’s as if someone shot me with a .45, and someone says, “Plus, you have hearing loss from the loud noise of the gunshot.” Yeah…but I’ve also got a .45 slug in my guts. Cars won’t start? Yeah…and there aren’t any oil refineries or distribution channels for gasoline. There aren’t any traffic signals. There aren’t any places you can safely drive without survivalists carjacking you. The air is poisoned. There are mobs and riots and looting at all the shops and stores. EMP? Like twentieth on the list of things to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/38 "2014-03-27T20:40:11Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > . . . No, any strike on the US would, of necessity, need to be a limited one. The realpolitic in the 21st century doesn’t give them the luxury of that old MAD bullshit. They could fire 1/20th of their arsenal at us, and we could fire 1/20th of ours at them, and MAD would be fully accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/39 "2014-03-27T20:46:37Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > During the Cold War, there was a commonly-held belief that the USSR would nuke targets not only for their civilian/military value, but to maximize the spread of nuclear fallout via prevailing winds. There was a variety of different scare’s going around, but in the case of nuking to max out the fallout, at the time the Russians were importing a lot of wheat for domestic consumption. Contaminating what would become “their breadbasket” did not really make sense. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617/40 "2014-03-27T21:29:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > EMP? Like twentieth on the list of things to worry about. High altitude electromagnetic pulse (HEMP) is a type of attack designed to disable sensitive electronics over a regional or national area. It wouldn’t result in physical damage at the surface level, but the damage to infrastructure would be far larger than just disabling car ECMs and burning out your television. All telecommunications, eletrical infrastructure controls, and any kind of sensitive equipment would be essentially useless. It is a major concern, especially as more nations develop the capability to build and deploy a HEMP nuclear device. > [@Trinopus](#): > > They could fire 1/20th of their arsenal at us, and we could fire 1/20th of ours at them, and MAD would be fully accomplished. _sigh_ If even a single nuclear weapon is fired, the _deterrence theory_ of assured destruction has already failed. Please, please, please make an effort to understand what the term even means before trying to argue how it is or should be considered. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-question/684617.md?page=3)