# Nuclear attack scenario **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 11, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328 "2020-11-11T15:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2020, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/63 "2020-11-16T22:52:41Z")
With my blessings Sir! (Note to self: do NOT argue with the guy with ~~atomic powered~~ nuclear armed coffee. Just nod, smile, and back out of the room slowly.) ---
**Author:** ![GreaterZamboni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@GreaterZamboni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreaterZamboni)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2020, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/64 "2020-11-17T01:01:59Z")
please plan to make better use of your afterlife. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/65 "2020-11-17T22:07:16Z")
You havenā€™t half-lived until youā€™ve had a piping hot cup of _Up and Atom!_ breakfast blend from TripCo Industries. Itā€™s sure to blast your morning off! Try our daughter products: our special decaffeinated blend, ā€œ_Fizzle_,ā€ and our new line of insulated mugs for your brewā€™s _containment vessel_! Tripler Okay, okay, sorry for the hijackā€“couldnā€™t resist. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/66 "2020-11-17T22:50:55Z")
Iā€™ve heard _Up and Atom!_ is really finicky about adding enough coffee to the potā€¦ Thankfully it doesnā€™t seem to be as sensitive to brewing temperature, like other coffees, unless youā€™re doing a multistage brew like with a Moka Pot or the like. I find the Moka Pot really fuses the disparate coffee flavors together, into a much larger taste. Really a giant explosion of flavor in your mug. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/67 "2020-11-17T22:53:43Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Okay, okay, sorry for the hijackā€“couldnā€™t resist. Hereā€™s two product items for your consideration. 1. [**Containment vessel**](https://www.wayfair.com/kitchen-tabletop/pdp/symple-stuff-lynnette-radioactive-grunge-sign-coffee-mug-w001042377.html). Be sure to look at the whole slideshow. 2. [**Fuel**](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01BGXLR1U). Happy mornings\*! Youā€™re welcome. šŸ’€ šŸ‘½ * * * \* Sunrise! On my mark! Three ā€¦ Two ā€¦ One ā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2020, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/68 "2020-11-18T14:05:39Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > [**Fuel**](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01BGXLR1U). ::snerk:: Thatā€™s pretty cool . . . "Store in a cool dry place.ā€™ What, like the [WIPP](https://wipp.energy.gov/)? Tripler The [NNSS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Test_Site) needs a good coffee joint. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/69 "2020-11-19T01:27:03Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Try our daughter products: our special decaffeinated blend, ā€œ _Fizzle_ ,ā€ and our new line of insulated mugs for your brewā€™s _containment vessel_ ! Iā€™d save Fizzle for your line of caffeine-free fizzy soft drinks. Decaf coffee ideas are No Blow Joe or the Muddy Dud fer yer Mug. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/70 "2020-11-19T11:29:19Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > The [NNSS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Test_Site) needs a good coffee joint. Look in the pastry case for some yellowcake. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/71 "2020-11-19T14:42:18Z")
At the cream & sugar station they also have a shaker full of neutrons. Just donā€™t shake in too many too hard too fast. You might trigger a boil-over. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/72 "2020-11-19T15:29:01Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Gigatons is [impossimpible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Possimpible). ā€˜Tsar Bombaā€™ was only 58 MT, and even that weighed in at 27 tons. > > I donā€™t know the OPā€™s airliner in mind, but Iā€™d have to see the gross max takeoff weight of his proverbial Airbus before we start getting into the gigaton-sized weapons. I donā€™t think this is entirely right. Ed Teller apparently had a workable design for a 10-gigaton bomb ([cite)](http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2012/09/12/in-search-of-a-bigger-boom/). I canā€™t find the weight in my sources, but Teller lobbied hard for it, and I donā€™t think heā€™d have stuck his neck out if he didnā€™t think it was deliverable. The reason it was never produced (apart from the obvious problems with global contamination and genocide) is the realization that we can upscale bomb yields very well, but we canā€™t really upscale transmission of energy to the target. In other words: to maximize the terrainā€™s exposure to the energy, you need to detonate that bomb as a certain high altitude. But at that high altitude, the atmosphere is too thin to transmit the overpressure wave. So thereā€™s really no theoretical limit to bomb yield, but a monster bomb like that achieves nothing but spending a billion dollars to send a warm cloud of radioactive waste into space (and back down to earth, on your own head, a few months thereafter). ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/73 "2020-11-19T20:54:34Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I donā€™t think this is entirely right. Ed Teller apparently had a workable design for a 10-gigaton bomb ([cite)](http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2012/09/12/in-search-of-a-bigger-boom/). I canā€™t find the weight in my sources, but Teller lobbied hard for it, and I donā€™t think heā€™d have stuck his neck out if he didnā€™t think it was deliverable. I didnā€™t get that jist from the article: straight in the first paragraph it leads me to believe he was all about designing weapons, but delivery was an afterthought. . . From the article: ` The last item on his list was the largest one he could imagine. The method of ā€œdeliveryā€ ā€” weapon-designer jargon for how you get your bomb from here to there, the target ā€” was listed as ā€œBackyard.ā€` I read ā€˜backyardā€™ as ā€œ_put this idea on the back burner_ā€ or ā€œ_someone else will figure it out._ā€ Even nowadays, in any given industry (even here) there are folks that can design [insert product here] well, but they completely miss the point of making things _user friendly_ or _deployable_. I posit that reason it was never produced was due to several factors: - It was so large, that then-existing platforms (read: bombers) could not deliver it; - It was politically unpalatable; - The proposed design was for ā€˜shock valueā€™, to wit: ` -When Teller met with the GAC, he also pushed for smaller bombs, but he thought there was still plenty of room on the high end of the scale. To be fair, Teller was probably feeling somewhat wounded: Livermoreā€™s one H-bomb design at Castle had been a dud, and the AEC had cancelled another one of his designs that was based on the same principle. So he did what only Edward Teller could do: he tried to raise the ante, to be the bold idea man. Cancel my H-bomb? How about this: he proposed a 10,000 megaton design. -Per Dr Rabi: "Donā€™t listen to Teller, heā€™s just trying to rile you." Edward Teller: trolling the GAC. ` `-Itā€™s hard not to wonder what motivates a man to make bigger and bigger and bigger bombs. Was it a genuine feeling that it would increase American or world security? Or was it just ambition? Iā€™m inclined to see it as the latter, personally: a desire to push the envelope, to push for the bigger impact, the biggest boom ā€” even into the territory of the dangerously absurd, the realm of self-parody.` Bolding by **Tripler** to emphasize points. There are some personalities that legitimately like to come up with designs to exhibit possibilities and push envelopes, or purely for ego-inflationary reasons. There are also some other personalities that come up with good ideas, but lack the ā€˜common senseā€™ factor. For example\*, on a side project I work on, a physicist came up with a device to perform a specific, in-the-field task for EOD folks. Along with the design came a 22-page manual for field assembly. I respectfully pointed out to said physicist that it took 30 minutes just to _assemble_ this thing; had far too delicate parts to be bouncing around in a truck/rucksack; and there were already field-survivable, powered tools that could be assembled in 5 minutes and accomplish the same specific, in-the-field task. Said physicist did not ā€˜camp happyā€™ after our private discussion, but ultimately came 'round to acknowledge my thoughts. \* An unclassified example, for a public message board, to demonstrate a singular point. Bottom line: I hear you, but larger yields ultimately require a corresponding physical size, and something in the gigaton range (or even multi-megaton range) would be large and heavy enough to bump up against an airlinersā€™ capacity. Iā€™m sure Teller had a design, but I donā€™t think it was a _practical_ one. Tripler Got a better design for a coffee machine? Cool! Itā€™s the size of a laser printer? Not so cool. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/74 "2020-11-19T21:18:35Z")
I think that ā€œbackyardā€ as a delivery mechanism means that you build it in your backyard, and then thatā€™s where you set it off, because thereā€™s no way itā€™s ever going anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/75 "2020-11-19T21:22:55Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Got a better design for a coffee machine? Cool! Itā€™s the size of a laser printer? Not so cool. At my previous place of employment we had a coffee machine that was _larger_ than a laser printer, and more expensive (a fancy espresso rig with levers and dials and everything). It was [this one](https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/rocket-espresso-appartamento-espresso-machine), and it was in fact very cool. It was more machine than circumstances demanded, but it suited managementā€™s goal of signaling that they wanted us caffeinated in comfort and style. Weā€™re never going to know the actual weight of a live gigaton warhead with todayā€™s tech, full stop. Thatā€™s the only way this dispute gets resolved. But I find it hard to believe Teller would have made such noise about a weapon that was entirely outside the feasible delivery range. You and I canā€™t know exactly how such a weapon would play out with modern technology, but it is fact that nuclear weapons miniaturization has come a long, _long_ way since the Tsar days. Perhaps Teller foresaw this. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/76 "2020-11-19T21:37:36Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > At my previous place of employment we had a coffee machine that was _larger_ than a laser printer, and more expensive (a fancy espresso rig with levers and dials and everything). It was [this one](https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/rocket-espresso-appartamento-espresso-machine), and it was in fact very cool. It was more machine than circumstances demanded, but it suited managementā€™s goal of signaling that they wanted us caffeinated in comfort and style. Oooh, that _is_ fancy! Granted, Iā€™ve accepted a level of survival where your morning coffee is the stick of ā€˜instantā€™ in your shirt pocket. War is hell . . . > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Weā€™re never going to know the actual weight of a live gigaton warhead with todayā€™s tech, full stop. Thatā€™s the only way this dispute gets resolved. I think we could ballpark it, based on physics; but Iā€™m not gonna do that on a public message board. And I donā€™t think we have a _dispute_ per se, just a professional, academic difference of opinions. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But I find it hard to believe Teller would have made such noise about a weapon that was entirely outside the feasible delivery range. You and I canā€™t know exactly how such a weapon would play out with modern technology, but it is fact that nuclear weapons miniaturization has come a long, _long_ way since the Tsar days. Perhaps Teller foresaw this. You are correct that nuclear weapons have historically gotten smaller, and more compact in physical sizes while preserving yield. I can agree with your point that Teller hedged his bets that his physics designs would be implementable with future technology (in package and delivery systems), ā€œ_The science is solidā€“the engineering will catch up._ā€ But I still think he then was selling an idea just to sell an idea. I still hold fast to the point that we **do** know how such a weapon would play out with modern _politics_ though. Tripler Agree to disagree, but Iā€™ll clink my coffee mug with you! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/77 "2020-11-19T21:45:22Z")
> **[Nuclear weapon design | Arbitrarily large multi-staged devices](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_design#Arbitrarily_large_multi-staged_devices)** > > The idea of a device which has an arbitrarily large number of Teller-Ulam stages, with each driving a larger radiation-driven implosion than the preceding stage, is frequently suggested, but technically disputed. There are "well-known sketches and some reasonable-looking calculations in the open literature about two-stage weapons, but no similarly accurate descriptions of true three stage concepts." > According to George Lemmer's 1967 Air Force and Strategic Deterrence 1951ā€“1960 paper, in 1957, LA... and the section immediately above pretty well covers what the public knows about such things. IMO ā€¦ As hard as it is to have the second stage function correctly adjacent to the rapidly expanding first stage fireball in current real-world weapons, building additional stages such that the 3rd, 4th, and 5th stages survive long enough to do their thing; Aye, thereā€™s the rub. Teller may well have believed that those practical problems of interstage survival would be surmountable in the near future. I suspect, with no technical knowledge, that he was being optimistic at best. I had the ā€œprivilegeā€ of hearing Teller speak in person to a group of about 50 of us at my engineering college in 1977. He would have been 69 or 70, but seemed to be about 80. He came across as somebody whoā€™d totally imbibed his own legend and who had never met a problem that a nuclear explosion would not improve. It was not a good look. Doubtless a brilliant scientist in his day, but by then he seemed more of an eccentric crank. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/78 "2020-11-19T21:54:56Z")
ā€œWhen you merely wish to _bury_ bombs, there is no _limit_ to the size. After that, they are connected to a gigantic complex of computersā€¦ā€ ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/79 "2020-11-19T22:46:27Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > I still hold fast to the point that we **do** know how such a weapon would play out with modern _politics_ though. As I read things, even in LeMayā€™s heyday, nobody wanted to initiate a genocide that might scald half a continent and contaminate most of the northern hemisphere. Even if you solved for design and deliverability, thereā€™s just no good place to deploy it except maybe some novel ideas about digging a very, very deep mine beneath your adversary. Which would beā€¦ interesting to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/80 "2020-11-20T16:16:49Z")
Two points on the gigaton warhead. First, just by looking at the Ted Taylor quote I mentioned above, you get a ~165-170,000 kg weight for a gigaton 2-stage device. I suspect multiple fusion stagesā€”which are ā€˜just an engineering problemā€™, LOLā€”shrink that size appreciably. Fusion gets more energy per unit of mass than fission does, and a bit of the yield from big thermonuclear devices were from fast neutrons fissioning U-238. Use them to heat and compress additional fusion stages, OTOH, and I would guess the yield efficiency goes up considerably. Second, I had though that Teller never intended such a giant device to be mobile? Rather it was to be salted with elements that yielded nasty radioactive isotopes upon neutron activation, and was intended to poison large chunks of Earthā€™s biosphere. Sort of like the Gadsden Flag meme with the snake holding a hand grenade, and the caption, ā€œFā€“k with me, and Iā€™ll kill us all.ā€ ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/81 "2020-11-21T01:41:00Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Second, I had though that Teller never intended such a giant device to be mobile? Rather it was to be salted with elements that yielded nasty radioactive isotopes upon neutron activation, and was intended to poison large chunks of Earthā€™s biosphere. The cobalt-salted bombs werenā€™t Tellerā€™s idea. That came from Leo Szilard. He intended his ideas as a warning, not for military application. As one might have expected, the lunatic LeMay wanted to run with it and was (I guess) eventually shut down. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328/82 "2020-12-01T19:52:20Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Iā€™m not convinced the reaction would be to completely annihilate the country at fault. Sure, the retribution would be terrible and might involve a nuke or two but overreaction of the sort youā€™re talking about would be just as morally reprehensible as those countries are also full of innocent civilians. During the Korean War, North Korea had not committed any offense comparable to nuking DC, yet we waged a campaign of strategic bombing that reduced the country to rubble and killed an estimated **two million people, almost entirely civilians** , according to statistician Matthew White, self-described ā€œatrocitologist.ā€ One American colonel who was captured and transported north said it looked like the surface of the moon, and he saw no intact buildings. I do not pretend to predict our reaction to our capital being nuked, but I have no confidence it would be proportionate or morally examined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-attack-scenario/925328.md?page=3)