# Nuclear blackmail with pathetic demands: Give in? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014 "2012-09-07T17:28:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/21 "2012-09-07T21:22:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think anything would have to be arranged. **silenus** makes a good point: the Chinese government helps prop up the Kim government in part because they don’t want to deal with the chaos that will follow if/when the North Korean government falls apart. If the DPRK government collapses, a lot of refugees will rush into China, and China would rather avoid that. If North Korea changed from a regional pain in the ass to a threat to tens of millions of Chinese citizens, they would act quickly and probably flatten Pyongyang and take control of the country. They don’t want to have to do that but it becomes the best outcome instead of maybe the worst. That would describe it well. The ‘arrangement’ doesn’t have to be more than a wink and a nod. China doesn’t want anything to happen that would expand the western influence in the area. They’ll take out North Korea just to keep more US troops out of the South. I forgot to put in before, my first post was about the paltry ransom. They realize they can only ask for so much before someone blows the shit out of them. What makes them scary now is the instability. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/22 "2012-09-07T22:32:46Z")
I give it about thirty seconds before South Korea starts the evacuation of Seoul and thirty minutes before the US Navy, the US Air Force, the Russian Air Force, the Chinese Air Force and the Chinese Army start sailing, marching, and flying towards the DPRK. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/23 "2012-09-07T23:14:14Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > That sort of demand is tantamount to a terrorist demand, and I just can’t see anyone, liberal or conservative, being in favor of giving in, especially for trivial demands.? Well…nuking all the cities listed would result in dozens of millions of deaths. I’m not sure the average DC resident would necessarily support being vaporized along with his family in order not to give into NK demands. Would you? And of course, nuking North Korea after a handful of major cities worldwide have been nuked themselves wouldn’t be particularly helpful. It wouldn’t bring back the dead, it would just add several millions more. I think the correct response would be to agree to the demands. It leaves you all the time to find a way to eliminate North Korean leadership without anybody resorting to nuckear weapons. It’s one thing to use nuclear detterence when you’re facing an existential threat, it’s another completely to engage in a nuclear exchange over some millions of dollars just to make a principled stance. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/24 "2012-09-08T00:59:36Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And of course, nuking North Korea after a handful of major cities worldwide have been nuked themselves wouldn’t be particularly helpful. It wouldn’t bring back the dead, it would just add several millions more. So what? Sucks to be North Korean when your government signs your death warrant, but if they launched at any other country on the planet, I think the nuclear powers should make sure that North Korea is visible from space at night for the next 6000 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/25 "2012-09-08T01:15:59Z")
All we need to do is inform the North Koreans that we will arrange an audience with the Master of Sinanju if they truly wish to discuss these demands. They will then apologize profusely and let the matter drop. Or they will die. Either way, the problem will be solved. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/26 "2012-09-08T01:24:57Z")
Time for me to weigh in I suppose. First of all, regarding my left or right-wing-ing-ness - well almost all left wingers would call me right wing, but on the other hand every right winger would call me left wing, and ultimately my left wing pro individual freedom principles win out over my right wing pro collective, economic, and cultural freedom principles. So I am a left winger fo the purposes of this. As to my views - well frankly I’m flabbergasted. I would have thought it were a no brainer to accept the blackmail and give them the pittance they want. By all means start ramping up systems to prevent anyone else ever getting nukes, ever again. By all means state that any significant increase in these demands will be followed by violence. But for me it’s so unbelievably obvious that a nuclear war in which tens or possibly hundreds of millions will die should be averted by practically any means. Hell, they can have a hundred dollars per Nork if they want. I thought left wingers would generally agree with me, being generally pragmatic when it comes to this kind of dilemma, while right wingers would act like the majority of posters in this thread, valuing principle over result. Although no one stated their political position as I asked, on a left leaning board for all but a couple to act as I expect right wingers to act is very peculiar for me. Anyway, do carry on 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/27 "2012-09-08T01:42:52Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > As to my views - well frankly I’m flabbergasted. I would have thought it were a no brainer to accept the blackmail and give them the pittance they want. By all means start ramping up systems to prevent anyone else ever getting nukes, ever again. By all means state that any significant increase in these demands will be followed by violence. But for me it’s so unbelievably obvious that a nuclear war in which tens or possibly hundreds of millions will die should be averted by practically any means. Hell, they can have a hundred dollars per Nork if they want. > > I thought left wingers would generally agree with me, being generally pragmatic when it comes to this kind of dilemma, while right wingers would act like the majority of posters in this thread, valuing principle over result. Although no one stated their political position as I asked, on a left leaning board for all but a couple to act as I expect right wingers to act is very peculiar for me. Your “pragmatism” is the willing acceptance of a life of slavery under whichever sociopath is least deserving of your loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/28 "2012-09-08T01:53:52Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Your “pragmatism” is the willing acceptance of a life of slavery under whichever sociopath is least deserving of your loyalty. How do you work that one out? If sending a few pennies over to north korea is slavery then taxation certainly is. But if taxation is slavery then all of us are slaves apart, ironically, from Kim Jong Un… There is no meaningful slavery in a tiny sacrifice. All of us are forced to do things we don’t want to do. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/29 "2012-09-08T02:26:56Z")
Dude, I’m a serious lefty and I swear on all that is holy that Charles Cotesworth Pickney shall not have died in vain. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/30 "2012-09-08T02:44:45Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > …Nork… Are you trying to establish a pejoritive term for North Koreans ? The Australians should have a laugh over this one. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/31 "2012-09-08T02:45:50Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > How do you work that one out? If sending a few pennies over to north korea is slavery then taxation certainly is. But if taxation is slavery then all of us are slaves apart, ironically, from Kim Jong Un… > > There is no meaningful slavery in a tiny sacrifice. All of us are forced to do things we don’t want to do. It’s not about pragmatism, it’s about not letting the badguy win. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/32 "2012-09-08T02:57:46Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > How do you work that one out? If sending a few pennies over to north korea is slavery then taxation certainly is. The government’s authority to demand taxes should come from their service to the population as a way to achieve common goals more effectively than everyone doing their own thing. North Korea’s authority would only come from their threat to burn you alive if you don’t pay up. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/33 "2012-09-08T06:49:47Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Time for me to weigh in I suppose. > > First of all, regarding my left or right-wing-ing-ness - well almost all left wingers would call me right wing, but on the other hand every right winger would call me left wing, and ultimately my left wing pro individual freedom principles win out over my right wing pro collective, economic, and cultural freedom principles. So I am a left winger fo the purposes of this. > > As to my views - well frankly I’m flabbergasted. I would have thought it were a no brainer to accept the blackmail and give them the pittance they want. By all means start ramping up systems to prevent anyone else ever getting nukes, ever again. By all means state that any significant increase in these demands will be followed by violence. But for me it’s so unbelievably obvious that a nuclear war in which tens or possibly hundreds of millions will die should be averted by practically any means. Hell, they can have a hundred dollars per Nork if they want. > > I thought left wingers would generally agree with me, being generally pragmatic when it comes to this kind of dilemma, while right wingers would act like the majority of posters in this thread, valuing principle over result. Although no one stated their political position as I asked, on a left leaning board for all but a couple to act as I expect right wingers to act is very peculiar for me. > > Anyway, do carry on 😉 Well I’m a lefty, and I agree with you. I’m just not sure that giving the money is necessary. If North Korea can be stalled long enough without giving the money, then don’t give them the money. I’d imagine that arranging the payment could plausibly take longer than it would take to arrange a tactical strike to disable North Korea’s ability to launch missiles. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/34 "2012-09-08T09:44:42Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > If we didn’t have time to evacuate NYC in time, we should give in to their demands. Meanwhile, make plans to put a nuclear bomb on every square mile of North Korean territory. Those plans already exist. So do the delivery systems. ICBMs could be on target within 30 minutes of giving the order, with the North Koreans likely having no idea the warheads were inbound. Anyone know if NK has the ability to detect inbound missiles? Not sure if they have search radar capable of detecting US MIRVs. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/35 "2012-09-08T11:14:52Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > As to my views - well frankly I’m flabbergasted. I would have thought it were a no brainer to accept the blackmail and give them the pittance they want. It doesn’t have anything to do with the amount that they’re asking. A country with nuclear weapons cannot be allowed to act like a school yard bully under any circumstances. NOW, if they threatened to use conventional weapons, my response would be very different. Think of it along the lines of a police standoff. If the perpetrator pulls a knife, the police will attempt to disarm him. But if the perpetrator pulls and aims a gun, they shoot first and ask questions later. It doesn’t matter what actual crime he committed, at the point that he pulled and aimed the gun, the priority shifts to stopping the lethal threat _before_ people are shot. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/36 "2012-09-08T16:21:39Z")
OK… so let’s make it even more extreme. Let’s say that instead of $10 per North Korean citizen, the demand is that the then-current president post a video to Youtube of himself singing “I Feel Pretty” from _West Side Story_ (in the original key and octave, of course). Does the same hardline “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” logic apply, or should President Obama start vocal exercises? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/37 "2012-09-08T18:28:27Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > First of all, regarding my left or right-wing-ing-ness - well almost all left wingers would call me right wing, but on the other hand every right winger would call me left wing, and ultimately my left wing pro individual freedom principles win out over my right wing pro collective, economic, and cultural freedom principles. So I am a left winger fo the purposes of this. Say _WHAT???_ You have a _seriously_ messed up idea of what “left-wing” and “right-wing” means. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/38 "2012-09-08T19:22:19Z")
With all of the military in South Korea, does anyone honestly believe it would not take the US about 10 minutes to eliminate North Korea as a nuclear threat if we had cause to start lobbing missles across the border? 5 minutes if we had navy cruise missiles in the area. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/39 "2012-09-08T20:10:44Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > OK… so let’s make it even more extreme. Let’s say that instead of $10 per North Korean citizen, the demand is that the then-current president post a video to Youtube of himself singing “I Feel Pretty” from _West Side Story_ (in the original key and octave, of course). > > Does the same hardline “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” logic apply, or should President Obama start vocal exercises? Is it a credible threat backed with nuclear weapons? Boom! ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014/40 "2012-09-08T20:37:18Z")
Yeah, it’s not about what their demands are, it’s about obviously crazy people threatening to kills tens of millions of people. That’s a threat that has to be eliminated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-blackmail-with-pathetic-demands-give-in/634014.md?page=3)