# Nuclear deal with Iran **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128 "2015-07-14T11:37:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/221 "2015-07-17T18:25:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This happened to me once but with urinals at an airport. The bathroom was empty and the guy chose the urinal right next to me. Its not like I had the urinal closest to the door, I was about 4 or 5 urinals in and the guy took the one right next to me, he had to walk by 3 other urinals to get to the one next to me (and he could have gone down a few more urinals because there were probably a dozen or more urinals along the wall. I thought it might have been a cultural thing I was unaware of . Was he tapping his foot? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/222 "2015-07-17T18:26:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If that’s how you see it, fine, but I’m sure you can see why some countries in the region feel that we’re taking risks with their security. In international affairs we should generally look to our interests first. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/223 "2015-07-17T19:23:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If you mean Israel and Saudi Arabia, why should we **want** them to be happy?! Getting a reputation for selling one’s ‘friends’ out to pursue some immediate advantage may, in some circumstances, be a bad idea from a strictly realist perspective. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/224 "2015-07-17T20:05:33Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > The young people in Iran (and there are lots of them) are very westernized. Women are treated as equals and they all want the same things the rest of us want. > > I think a lot of us have a distorted view of the people of Iran due to what gets reported in the media, and I’m pretty sure they have a distorted view of the US for the same reasons. it’s also important to remember that there really is a divide between the urban and rural citizenry. There is both a more westernized and moderate urban population and a rural population that tends toward the hardliners. The reporting that focuses on the moderates tends to be the equivalent of visiting New York and LA and commenting on the political opinions of all Americans. A lot of the harder news focuses on the hardliners in power. Iran is both. The Iranian political system combines aspects of both theocracy and democratic elections. There is real political support for hardliners in Iran for the hardliners. Mahmoud “burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury” Ahmadinejad got elected … **twice.** There’s starting to be some interesting looking stories on the effect of this deal on the internal political balance between moderates and hardliners. I haven’t had a chance to look though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/225 "2015-07-17T20:08:10Z")
I can see Israel as a “friend” of the US, have always thought of them that way. A troublesome cantankerous friend, to be sure. Saudi Arabia isn’t even really a country, in my eyes, they are an entity, an artificial installation, a royal family with a vast number of employees. Clearly, the Wahhabi fanatics in their midst are not our friends, and their delicate balancing act of sucking up to them is a major problem. The only reason we put up with them at all is that our oil somehow got stuck under their sand. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/226 "2015-07-17T22:02:17Z")
Cool story, bro. I’m sure Israel is relieved you think of them as a friend. Meanwhile Congress passed the [US-Israeli Strategic Partnership Act](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Israel_Strategic_Partnership_Act_of_2013). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/227 "2015-07-17T23:55:05Z")
I got a plan, dude. I’ll tell you the truth as best I can, and you believe whatever you damn well please. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/228 "2015-07-18T00:07:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I got a plan, dude. I’ll tell you the truth as best I can, and you believe whatever you damn well please. Works for me. Thanks for the permission to believe what I want. Was waiting nervously for your say so. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/229 "2015-07-18T01:38:40Z")
You do know, right, that I was responding to **Malthus** comment about “…Getting a reputation for selling one’s ‘friends’ out…”? About the distinction between friendship based on shared history and affection, and friendship based strictly on commercial concerns? Rather a pedestrian observation, frankly. A commonplace, really, but I’d like to suggest that other nation’s response to a perceived disloyalty will likely recognize that fact, that turning you back on a friend is a betrayal, but changing your vendor is not. You _do_ get that, right? How, then, is your perception of my sincerity in attesting a friendly attitude towards Israel even remotely relevant? Indeed, how would the actual fact of that sincerity be relevant? What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/230 "2015-07-18T02:17:13Z")
Earlier someone said Israelis are not monolithic. Which is true, but on this issue Israel’s political parties almost all agree: this deal is not good for Israel. > **[Israeli Opposition Leader: Iran Deal Will Bring Chaos to the Middle East](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/07/israel-isaac-herzog-iran-nuclear-deal/398705/)** > > The agreement will "unleash a lion from the cage," Isaac Herzog tells Jeffrey Goldberg. Now the question becomes: Is AIPAC as powerful as its critics say? A two thirds vote ends this deal. If anyone can scare enough Democrats into voting against the deal, it’s them. And speaking of allies, what of J Street, who supports the deal even though no mainstream Israeli political party does? Will this destroy what little credibility they have and pretty much end them as an alternative to AIPAC? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/231 "2015-07-18T02:40:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And speaking of allies, what of J Street, who supports the deal even though no mainstream Israeli political party does? Will this destroy what little credibility they have and pretty much end them as an alternative to AIPAC? They never had any credibility. They always were the appendage of Democrats’ left wing and any correlation, if it exists, between their advocacy and Israel’s best interest is just a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/232 "2015-07-18T02:40:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Earlier someone said Israelis are not monolithic. Which is true, but on this issue Israel’s political parties almost all agree: this deal is not good for Israel. > > [Israeli Opposition Leader Isaac Herzog: Iran Deal Will Bring Chaos to the Middle East - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/07/israel-isaac-herzog-iran-nuclear-deal/398705/) > > Now the question becomes: Is AIPAC as powerful as its critics say? A two thirds vote ends this deal. If anyone can scare enough Democrats into voting against the deal, it’s them. And speaking of allies, what of J Street, who supports the deal even though no mainstream Israeli political party does? Will this destroy what little credibility they have and pretty much end them as an alternative to AIPAC? It works the other way too – if this deal goes through, and a Democrat wins in 2016 (after, presumably, AIPAC attacks the Democrats), then the Israel lobby (and AIPAC in particular) will lose a huge amount of influence – politicians will no longer fear them. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/233 "2015-07-18T02:47:09Z")
AIPAC isn’t going to run against the Democrats. They are going to lobby against the deal. As will Israel’s Labor leader, although he refuses to call what he’s going to do lobbying. Your statement makes little sense. The NRA isn’t able to make Republicans win every election, but the NRA is still genuinely feared. AIPAC’s goal, like the NRA, isn’t to have any particular party win elections, although I’m sure they have their preference. It’s to get both parties on their side. Which both the NRA and AIPAC are very good at, which demonstrates their power. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/234 "2015-07-18T02:56:36Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > AIPAC isn’t going to run against the Democrats. They are going to lobby against the deal. As will Israel’s Labor leader, although he refuses to call what he’s going to do lobbying. AIPAC has been known to attack politicians, if perhaps behind the scenes. If they’re lobbying fails, and the deal passes, then I think it’s likely they’ll help (surreptitiously, perhaps) the opponents of Democrats who supported the deal. > [@](#): > > Your statement makes little sense. The NRA isn’t able to make Republicans win every election, but the NRA is still genuinely feared. AIPAC’s goal, like the NRA, isn’t to have any particular party win elections, although I’m sure they have their preference. It’s to get both parties on their side. Which both the NRA and AIPAC are very good at, which demonstrates their power. I don’t think they’re comparable. The NRA very openly attacks Democrats, quite frequently – but Democrats don’t fear them that much, I don’t think, at least not at the national and probably state-wide level… the ones who fear the NRA are Republicans facing primaries. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/235 "2015-07-18T15:21:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They never had any credibility. They always were the appendage of Democrats’ left wing and any correlation, if it exists, between their advocacy and Israel’s best interest is just a coincidence. Sez who? Are you offering us the premise that J Street is a deliberately malicious organization, with a covert goal? That they are committed to opposing such men as Netanyahu not because of a sincere disagreement about what is best for Israel, but a hidden and unstated agenda of destruction and subversion? Well, OK, does _anyone_ sincerely oppose Netanyahu and his policies? Are we to take it that anyone who pretends such sincerity is lying? You know this? How? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/236 "2015-07-18T15:29:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sez who? Are you offering us the premise that J Street is a deliberately malicious organization, with a covert goal? The goal is not covert. It’s an organization that is an appendage to the left wing of the Democrats, with the goal of perpetuating the pretense that Democrats are friendly to Israel (yes, yes, friends who criticize because they are friends blah blah blah). When the fact is that [Democrats are not](http://www.worldtribune.com/2015/07/06/poll-47-percent-of-u-s-democrats-now-see-israel-as-a-racist-country/). The second, again, very much not covert, goal is to split the US Jewish organizations in their support for Israel - from inside. Most Jews do see through the pretense and see that goal, and it won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/237 "2015-07-18T16:04:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The goal is not covert. It’s an organization that is an appendage to the left wing of the Democrats, with the goal of perpetuating the pretense that Democrats are friendly to Israel (yes, yes, friends who criticize because they are friends blah blah blah). When the fact is that [Democrats are not](http://www.worldtribune.com/2015/07/06/poll-47-percent-of-u-s-democrats-now-see-israel-as-a-racist-country/). Really? You’re citing a poll by [this guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz)? > [@](#): > > Frank I. Luntz (born February 23, 1962) is an American political consultant,[2] pollster, and “public opinion guru”[3] best known for developing talking points and other messaging for various Republican causes. His work has included assistance with messaging for Newt Gingrich’s Contract with America, promotion of the terms death tax instead of estate tax and climate change instead of global warming, and public relations support for pro-Israel policies in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. > > Luntz’s most recent work has been with the Fox News Channel as a frequent commentator and analyst, as well as running focus groups during and after presidential debates. Luntz describes his specialty as “testing language and finding words that will help his clients sell their product or turn public opinion on an issue or a candidate.”[4] He is also an author of business books dealing with communication strategies and public opinion. Luntz’s current company, Luntz Global, LLC, specializes in message creation and image management for commercial and political clients. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/238 "2015-07-18T16:18:36Z")
> [@rsa](#): > > Really? You’re citing a poll by [this guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz)? Yes, this guy. Frank Luntz is a very good pollster and a world-renowned PR expert. He works for the Republicans, so is is hated by liberals, but that does not make him incompetent. If he was, he’d not be hated as much. I do disagree with his analysis of his results in the article. Well, not disagree precisely, since it is pretty much on point, but I would refuse to try to appease anti-Semites by hiding or changing the word “Zionism”. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/239 "2015-07-18T16:25:37Z")
\*\*\*\*[Yet he’s still an impartial pollster](http://www.luntzglobal.com/)? > [@](#): > > Our creative team is made up of expert wordsmiths that know market research as well as they know language. And here’s what matters most for you: as a result, you get language that is tailored specifically to shift support towards your issue, your business or your goals…word by word, phrase by phrase. Tested, researched and perfected, **using innovative polling** , comprehensive market research, and instant response dial sessions – we make sure you know exactly what your audience wants, and needs, to hear. Bolding mine. Do have any illusions about what “innovative” means in this context? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/240 "2015-07-18T16:26:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, this guy. Frank Luntz is a very good pollster and a world-renowned PR expert. He works for the Republicans, so is is hated by liberals, but that does not make him incompetent. If he was, he’d not be hated as much. > > I do disagree with his analysis of his results in the article. Well, not disagree precisely, since it is pretty much on point, but I would refuse to try to appease anti-Semites by hiding or changing the word “Zionism”. Without seeing the details of the methodology used, it would be foolish to accept results from a hyper-partisan such as Luntz at face value. > [@rsa](#): > > Do have any illusions about what “innovative” means in this context? It’s sorta like “enhanced interrogate”, except less painful and more deceptive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128.md?page=13)