# Nuclear deal with Iran **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128 "2015-07-14T11:37:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/381 "2015-07-21T16:05:33Z")
If we may return from the amusing Carter-Reagan pissing contest… > [@Malthus](#): > > However, no matter what they think about Israel (or Bibi), getting a reputation for selling out even (as far as they are concerned) nasty and obnoxious ‘friends’ is, from a strictly unemotional POV, not a good thing for the US. Countries can publicly applaud Bibi getting shafted, while privately resolving not to put themselves in a position where they get shafted by trusting the US too much. Selling out? The US provided Israel $3.1B as in Billion in FY 2015 for Foreign Military Financing and will deliver, sometime in 2016, the first in a number of F35 fighter jets to Israel. The above doesn’t count the $96.8M in Joint US-Israel programs for FY 15 or the $175.9M for support for the Iron Dome anti-rocket system (a good percentage of that and the Arrow missile system was funded by US dollars). If that’s selling out… Now granted, if suddenly that budget is cut by 50% in FY 2016, then maybe there is a case to be made. But I haven’t seen that, have you? The US has (politically since 1948; militarily since 1967) supported Israel even when it was not always in our best political interests-and I cannot see any president doing differently. But our interests also lie with the most populous and historically one of the most critical powers in the area between the Med and Indian; Iran (Persia). The other two historical powers (Turkey/Ottomans and Egypt) are either allies or ‘friends’, but at least not enemies. It seems reasonable to engage with the historical regional power that we have bad relations with. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/382 "2015-07-21T16:30:51Z")
The Americans are [doing just about everything short of nuking Tehran to appease Israel, but the Israeli government is playing hard to get](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/21/world/middleeast/in-visit-to-israel-defense-secretary-vows-vigilance-in-fighting-irans-influence.html): > [@](#): > > Once the pact was reached last week after marathon negotiations, Mr. Netanyahu called it a “historic mistake” and balked at engaging, in a phone call with Mr. Obama, in talk about how the United States might fatten the already generous military aid package it gives Israel. Administration aides said afterward that Mr. Netanyahu had rebuffed American overtures because he believed that accepting them now would be tantamount to blessing the nuclear deal. > > Silvan Shalom, Israel’s deputy prime minister, also turned his nose up at the suggestion on Monday of American compensation to Israel for the Iran deal. He told reporters at a briefing that any offer of increased military aid “is not really something that we are dealing with because it looks like a contradiction.” Amplifying the argument made by Mr. Netanyahu, Mr. Shalom said, “If the agreement is so good, and if the agreement is making sure the Iranians will never have nuclear power, why do we need any kind of aid?” Many Israeli experts, however - including a former Mossad boss, a former Shin Bet, a former deputy national security adviser, etc. - [support the deal](https://peacenow.org/entry.php?id=12886#.Va5yHxOqqko). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/383 "2015-07-21T17:04:28Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Damuri Ajashi: > > Once the G5+1 leaders decided they needed to broker a deal with Iran, no Israeli had a seat at the table no matter who the particular prime minister is. If Israel was in any way involved, the Iranians would have pretended the negotiatiors don’t exist. I didn’t mean in the G5+1 talks, I meant in the larger context. Israel is going to have less influence after thumbing its nose at its strongest ally. Going forward, people will care less about what they think because WE will care less about what they think. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/384 "2015-07-21T17:09:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s not a whole-blooded indorsement of the deal though - what he’s saying, if I read it correctly, is that now that the deal is here Israel must support it, because if the US rejects it now, the sanctions will deteriorate and Iran will be free to pursue its nukes unhampered. > > In particular, I agree with this fellow on this: > > The part he’s not commenting on is that many in the West appear to be hoping that Iran’s trouble-making capacity will in fact prove quite useful - against ISIS. In short, it may be a feature and not a bug. There is also the issue of trying to attach other conditions to sanctions that were meant to address the nuclear threat. Trying to use these sanctions to do anything other than stop Iran’s nuclear progress is going to lead to the disintegration of the sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/385 "2015-07-22T07:10:55Z")
An interesting point was raised by an op-ed today? Instead of trying to spike the deal, Congress can pass veto proof majority changes to the deal instead. Which could spike it, or improve it, depending on the conditions attached. One thing mentioned was something I talked about: since Iran will be funding its proxies a lot more in the coming months and years, we need to follow suit. More aid for Israel, the Kurds, the Saudis, the Iraqis, and since Iran has still declared that they are our enemy(which concerns John Kerry), step up covert operations against Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/386 "2015-07-22T09:42:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > More aid for Israel, the Kurds, the Saudis, the Iraqis About those Saudis. If the Americans told the Saudis, “look guys, if you want to attack [the poorest country in the Middle East](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14704852), and impose a blockade which [puts 80% of the country’s population - some twenty million people - at the risk of dying of thirst and starvation](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/05/saudi-led-naval-blockade-worsens-yemen-humanitarian-disaster), and go out of your way to bomb not just civilian areas but also [priceless ancient momuments and artifacts](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/27/opinion/yemeni-heritage-saudi-vandalism.html?_r=0), all over some tenuous Iranian-Houthi connection [which really doesn’t amount to a hill o’ beans](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/Backchannels/2015/0402/Reducing-Yemen-s-Houthis-to-Iranian-proxies-is-a-mistake-video), then that’s… well, it’s cool and all, but maybe, just maaaaybe, you could do that with [some of those \*80 billion dollars \*you are already using for military spending](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures), which BTW alone is [more than Yemen’s entire GDP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Yemen)?”, then that would be… Understandable. I think. But hey, it’s your dough. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/387 "2015-07-22T09:50:42Z")
Yeah, I had to hold my nose when writing that part, but the fact is, we do want the Saudis to win. Although that’s another example of how if we want that battle fought, we would do it better and with less atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/388 "2015-07-22T10:07:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, I had to hold my nose when writing that part, but the fact is, we do want the Saudis to win. Although that’s another example of how if we want that battle fought, we would do it better and with less atrocities. Considering how things went down in Iraq, where you people did get involved, I seriously doubt that. As for the Kurds and the Iraqis you mention, that you want the Americans to increase their support to - would that be the same Kurds and Iraqis that the Iranians are already supporting, i.e. Iraqi Kurdistan and the Iraqi government? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/389 "2015-07-22T10:31:01Z")
In that case, yes, although the idea is to make them both better at fighting ISIS and more independent of Iran. With the Shiites, they’ll be close to Iran no matter what, but the Kurds are no friends of the Iranians. Part of their country is in Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/390 "2015-07-22T10:50:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > the Kurds are no friends of the Iranians Well, there’s the famous saying that the Kurds have “no friends but the mountains.” At least for now, though, the Iranians come close. As I have already pointed out, [Iran was the first country to answer the Kurdish call for arms and ammunition in the struggle against ISIS, way back in August of 2014](http://time.com/3196580/iran-kurds-isis-erbil-iraq/) - a fact that Massoud Barzani, head of the Iraqi Kurds, himself acknowledged at the time: > [@](#): > > “We asked for weapons and Iran was the first country to provide us with weapons and ammunition,” said Kurdish President Massoud Barzani in a press conference. What’s more, Barzani [has welcomed the Iran deal](http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/150720152), [as has his nephew, Nechervan Barzani](http://www.basnews.com/en/news/2015/07/17/pm-barzani-welcomes-iran-west-deal/) - Prime Minister of the Kurdistan Regional Government of Iraqi Kurdistan. Despite their differences - and they do have differences, I’m certainly not denying that - things are looking better between the Iranians and at least the Iraqi Kurds than they have in a long, long time. What’s more, this détente actually predates the spectacular rise of ISIS, which naturally brought the two parties even closer together. Consider [this](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/21/iran-influence-iraqi-kurdistan), for example, from back in 2013: > [@](#): > > … Instead of throwing its weight about militarily, Iranian influence on daily life in Iraqi Kurdistan is now softer, but no less persuasive. Trade between Iran and Iraqi Kurdistan is making far greater inroads than military operations ever did. Last year [2012] saw a visit to Iraqi Kurdistan by the Iranian vice president for international affairs and a delegation of more than 100 Iranian companies as part of the Iranian-Kurdistan Region Economic Forum. > > This July, the Iranian first vice president welcomed the Iraqi Kurdistan minister of housing and development, amid announcements that a new bilateral trade agreement had been signed and that trade between Iran and Iraqi Kurdistan was expected to surpass $4 billion in 2013. In 2000, before the war, the officially reported volume of trade was only $100 million. [And from 2014](http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/22923): > [@](#): > > “We will continue to strengthen our relationship with our eastern neighbor Iran,” Barzani said in a statement read at a Kurdish oil and gas conference in London. And now with sanctions being lifted, I can only imagine there’ll be more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/391 "2015-07-22T10:58:27Z")
Iran, unlike the US, hasn’t sold them out yet to appease an enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/392 "2015-07-22T11:17:25Z")
I don’t follow. To my knowledge, the U.S. hasn’t “sold out” the Kurds since [1975](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/29/fight-lives): > [@](#): > > In the mid-nineteen-seventies, with the backing of the Shah of Iran, Israel, and the Central Intelligence Agency, Kurdish rebels secured a large self-governing area in northern Iraq. Mustafa Barzani, charismatic but unsophisticated, saw the Americans’ interest as a guarantee of victory. “My father never trusted the Shah, but he had total faith in America,” Masoud told me. Then, in 1975, the Shah made a separate peace with Saddam and cut off support to the Kurds. Mahmoud Othman, one of Mustafa’s closest advisers, recalled that the Shah announced his decision in a meeting, so dispassionately that he never raised his voice: “He said he’d made a deal and that, unfortunately, a third party had lost—and that was us, the Kurds.” When the Shah withdrew his aid, the C.I.A. and the Israelis quickly followed. The Iraqi Army surged back in, and more than a hundred thousand Kurds fled the region. A few months later, Mustafa received a diagnosis of advanced lung cancer. He spent his last years in the United States. Before he died, he wrote to President Jimmy Carter: “I could have prevented this calamity which befell my people, had I not fully believed in the promise of America.” The moment still resonates; Henry Kissinger’s name is known, and reviled, by nearly every Kurd. Though the Kurds remember, that was forty years ago. Were you referring to something else? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/393 "2015-07-22T11:19:52Z")
My info was out of date. THe Kurds were complaining that we were going through Baghdad to get them weaponry, which effectively meant they got little help against ISIS. But most of the West has changed that policy and are now supplying arms directly to the Kurds. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/394 "2015-07-22T11:29:33Z")
I see. No problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/395 "2015-07-22T11:39:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > . But most of the West has changed that policy and are now supplying arms directly to the Kurds. I have missed this. Which countries are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/396 "2015-07-22T12:09:30Z")
France, Germany, the UK, and us: > **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/?err_code=404&err_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2014%2F08%2F13%2Ffrance-arms-kurds_n_5674411.html)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. > **[Germany to supply arms to Kurds fighting IS in Iraq](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29012159)** > > Germany will send enough weapons to equip 4,000 Kurdish fighters defending areas of northern Iraq against Islamist militants. > **[UK prepares to supply arms directly to Kurdish forces fighting Isis](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/uk-britain-arms-supply-kurdish-forces-iraq-isis)** > > Kurds welcome move by Britain to significantly intensify its involvement in the current Iraq crisis ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/397 "2015-07-22T13:16:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > France, Germany, the UK, and us: > [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/france-arms-kurds_n_5674411.html) > > [Germany to supply arms to Kurds fighting IS in Iraq - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29012159) > > [UK prepares to supply arms directly to Kurdish forces fighting Isis | Iraq | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/uk-britain-arms-supply-kurdish-forces-iraq-isis) I think you’re missing something - last year, a bunch of countries rushed aid directly to the Kurds on an emergency basis because Iraq was basically teetering. Since then, the Iraqi government has somewhat gotten its feet under itself, and has strongly protested direct aid to the Kurds as an infringement on its sovereignty. So far as I am aware, Western countries have generally agreed not to piss off Baghdad again in this way (unless needed in extremis). I thought you were referring to Western countries backing off this policy in the last several weeks, which would have surprised me. Arab countries, on the other hand, don’t give a flying fig newton what Baghdad wants and want to use their own resources to arm Kurds directly. As of late, there are reports (I’m not sure how credible since they come from the British press) taht Western countries, mostly the US, have been telling the Arab countries not to screw things up. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/398 "2015-07-22T13:43:03Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > If we may return from the amusing Carter-Reagan pissing contest… > > Selling out? The US provided Israel $3.1B as in Billion in FY 2015 for Foreign Military Financing and will deliver, sometime in 2016, the first in a number of F35 fighter jets to Israel. The above doesn’t count the $96.8M in Joint US-Israel programs for FY 15 or the $175.9M for support for the Iron Dome anti-rocket system (a good percentage of that and the Arrow missile system was funded by US dollars). > > If that’s selling out… > > Now granted, if suddenly that budget is cut by 50% in FY 2016, then maybe there is a case to be made. But I haven’t seen that, have you? > > The US has (politically since 1948; militarily since 1967) supported Israel even when it was not always in our best political interests-and I cannot see any president doing differently. > > But our interests also lie with the most populous and historically one of the most critical powers in the area between the Med and Indian; Iran (Persia). The other two historical powers (Turkey/Ottomans and Egypt) are either allies or ‘friends’, but at least not enemies. > > It seems reasonable to engage with the historical regional power that we have bad relations with. IMHO. As I said, there are certainly arguments to be made that the Deal isn’t “selling out”. I’m talking about perceptions here. Let’s say, strictly for the sake of argument, that the Deal is justly perceived as “selling out”. Is that a bad thing or not, and if it is, why? That, it strikes me, is the question. The answer to which I have given. Though I would disagree that saying ‘look at all the fine stuff we do for you’ is really a _good_ answer to the “selling out” perception. Much less ‘we have legitimate reasons to improve our relations with your enemy, who is populous and powerful’. Of course the US does. Everyone who sells someone out typically has a good, self-interested reason for doing so. Otherwise they wouldn’t do it. I would also dispute the notion that the US has supported Israel “politically” since 1948 “even when it was not always in our best political interests” - this account seems imbedded in US mythology, but the actual history is much more nuanced than that. In fact, the US acted swifty and decisively to squash joint UK/French/Israeli aggression against Egypt in '56, and acted slowly and feebly to attempt to impede Egyptian aggression in '67 (for example, the Israelis asked - begged - the US to send a single ship through the Egyptian blockade - and the US refused). General US support for Israel is a later creation, it does not apply to the 48-67 period, really. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/399 "2015-07-22T13:48:28Z")
The thing is, Israel had such an extreme and hardline position on these negotiations (complete Iranian capitulation or no deal) that no reasonable person can take it as “selling them out” because they are unhappy with the deal. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/400 "2015-07-22T13:50:43Z")
Iran is the primary funder of the people killing their citizens. There is no plausible way that a democracy can support removal of sanctions given that fact. The Israeli public elects people to keep them safe. Doing us a solid by helping us with political cover for the Iran talks wouldn’t be serving their people very well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128.md?page=21)