# Nuclear deal with Iran **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128 "2015-07-14T11:37:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/81 "2015-07-14T23:32:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Oh, so you don’t believe in credibility? I’m going to make a note of this for future debates. Tell me, just how credible to you think Iran is? Do you think they are trustworthy? If so, please share how you come to that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/82 "2015-07-14T23:46:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There was no straw-manning done. Perhaps you should look the word up. While you’re at it, check “moral high ground”, as well. > [@Ravenman](#): > > We should all keep one question in mind when the agreement comes under criticism: how did that critic view the 2003 invasion of Iraq? **If they enthusiastically supported it** , they probably are terrible at foreign policy. If they strenuously opposed the invasion and think this is a bad deal, that’s something to consider. But I haven’t heard a lot of criticism from such people, at least so far. (my bold) > [@sleestak](#): > > Clinton on Nuke deal: > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*This is a very difficult vote, this is probably the hardest decision I’ve ever had to make. \*\*Any vote that might lead to war should be hard, but I cast it with conviction. > > sez Hillary Clinton on her vote for the Iraq war. > > So, according to your standards, Hillary Clinton is terrible at foreign policy. (my bold) sleestak’s interpretation of Ravenman’s position as applied to the one that Hillary took was not on point. The key part is “enthusiastic support” which was omitted in sleestak’s interpretation as that would not be a fair characterization of Hillary’s support of the 2003 vote. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/83 "2015-07-14T23:53:46Z")
> [@](#): > > …Do you think they are trustworthy?.. If they were trustworthy, the negotiations would be simpler. Would also be easier if they didn’t mistrust us. But ain’t so. Which means that those people who struggle to put together a deal that will avoid war take on a vexing, exhausting, thankless task. There are such people on both sides of this. Such people are the best of us, and the rest of us are the problem they hope to solve. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/84 "2015-07-15T00:04:52Z")
I like that “snapback” happens simply by the US accusing Iran. Since all 5 members of the Security Council would have to agree that Iran is not cheating to avoid snapback, the burden of proof is on Iran and its allies to prove Iran is complying if the US has suspicions. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/85 "2015-07-15T00:09:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If they were trustworthy, the negotiations would be simpler. Would also be easier if they didn’t mistrust us. But ain’t so. Which means that those people who struggle to put together a deal that will avoid war take on a vexing, exhausting, thankless task. There are such people on both sides of this. > > Such people are the best of us, and the rest of us are the problem they hope to solve. America is a problem that Iran how repeatedly said it would lie to solve by bringing death to all of us. After Israel, of course. And now they have an easier road to acquiring the means to carry out their desires. Who knew that Kerry would find a way to further damage the U.S., but find it he did. I’m consistently amazed how liberals are so happy to see Israel get fucked. I guess being surrounded but countries that want to erase you from the face of the earth isn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/86 "2015-07-15T00:12:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I like that “snapback” happens simply by the US accusing Iran. Since all 5 members of the Security Council would have to agree that Iran is not cheating to avoid snapback, the burden of proof is on Iran and its allies to prove Iran is complying if the US has suspicions. And some idiots will believe the “proof” then the same way they are so quick to believe Iran now. In the meantime, Iran will have benefitted from all that time of having no sanctions and moving their nuclear program forward surreptitiously. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/87 "2015-07-15T00:14:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > America is a problem that Iran how repeatedly said it would lie to solve by bringing death to all of us. After Israel, of course. And now they have an easier road to acquiring the means to carry out their desires. > > Who knew that Kerry would find a way to further damage the U.S., but find it he did. > > I’m consistently amazed how liberals are so happy to see Israel get fucked. I guess being surrounded but countries that want to erase you from the face of the earth isn’t enough. Your position doesn’t appear bear any relation to the universe we live in. Maybe you intended it for some parallel universe or pocket dimension? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/88 "2015-07-15T00:17:46Z")
I think Magellan has a good point. But I’m also inclined to let Presidents have their head when they have a grand idea that has a chance of working. I was prepared to slag the President if the deal was horrible, but it’s not too horrible and he bears 100% of the risks involved. If Iranian terrorist groups attack American targets with the new money they’ll be flush with, that’s on him. If Iran develops a nuke anyway, that’s on him. If Iran cheats and sanctions snapback doesn’t happen or is ineffective, that’s on him. But if Iran sticks to the deal, or even better Iran becomes a more responsible, more democratic country due to being more prosperous and having better relations with the outside world, that’s on him too. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/89 "2015-07-15T00:21:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think Magellan has a good point. No, he really doesn’t. Reread his post. It’s utter nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/90 "2015-07-15T00:22:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Your position doesn’t appear bear any relation to the universe we live in. Maybe you intended it for some parallel universe or pocket dimension? No, it was intended for intelligent humans here on earth. Feel free to disregard. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/91 "2015-07-15T00:25:27Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, he really doesn’t. Reread his post. It’s utter nonsense. So, just because you don’t understand something (or probably more honestly, don’t agree with it), you are omniscient enough to know that another poster’s take on what I wrote is wrong…that his understanding must align with yours or else HE is wrong. Not you. :rolleyes:😕:rolleyes: You’re an odd fellow, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/92 "2015-07-15T00:26:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Tell me, just how credible to you think Iran is? Do you think they are trustworthy? If so, please share how you come to that conclusion. No, I don’t trust them. That’s why inspections and the threat of snapping sanctions back is necessary. > [@Bone](#): > > (my bold) > sleestak’s interpretation of Ravenman’s position as applied to the one that Hillary took was not on point. The key part is “enthusiastic support” which was omitted in sleestak’s interpretation as that would not be a fair characterization of Hillary’s support of the 2003 vote. The bigger problem is that he omits several caveats that are right there in black and white. I said, if A and B, the result is probably C. He thinks I said, if B then C. The two propositions aren’t the same. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/93 "2015-07-15T00:30:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m consistently amazed how liberals are so happy to see Israel get fucked. Obviously many of us (and many of Netanyahu’s critics in Israel, it turns out) believe that this deal strengthens Israel’s position and makes them safer, even if Netanyahu disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/94 "2015-07-15T00:33:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, it was intended for intelligent humans here on earth. Feel free to disregard. Really? Because you wrote: > [@](#): > > America is a problem that Iran how repeatedly said it would lie to solve by bringing death to all of us. After Israel, of course. And now they have an easier road to acquiring the means to carry out their desires. Which is word-salad goofy. And if accepted, would color any agreement whatsoever as null and void. Then you said: > [@](#): > > Who knew that Kerry would find a way to further damage the U.S., but find it he did. He’s a war hero and you honestly think he’s trying to hurt the US? That’s hyperbolic beyond any reason. Seeing a conspiracy theory like that comment suggests that it wasn’t intended to be taken seriously. Then you said: > [@](#): > > I’m consistently amazed how liberals are so happy to see Israel get fucked. I guess being surrounded but countries that want to erase you from the face of the earth isn’t enough. Which suggests you literally think US liberals want Israel to “get fucked” presumably by a nuclear weapon. That the assertion is offensive and hardly worth commenting on. No, your post wasn’t meant for intelligent folk as a description of the issues involved. It was a seething utterance with little regard for the facts and reality of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/95 "2015-07-15T00:35:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Obviously many of us (and many of Netanyahu’s critics in Israel, it turns out) believe that this deal strengthens Israel’s position and makes them safer, even if Netanyahu disagrees. This agreement is not a win-win for everyone. Israel understands its security needs better than the US. The agreement is a risk, and if it’s the wrong move, Israel pays more dearly than we or any of the other 5+1 powers do. We placed a bet and put Israel in the pot. Let’s hope it’s a good bet. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/96 "2015-07-15T00:39:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This agreement is not a win-win for everyone. Israel understands its security needs better than the US. The agreement is a risk, and if it’s the wrong move, Israel pays more dearly than we or any of the other 5+1 powers do. We placed a bet and put Israel in the pot. Let’s hope it’s a good bet. Attacking Iran would be a much worse bet. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/97 "2015-07-15T00:44:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > In the meantime, Iran will have benefitted from all that time of having no sanctions and moving their nuclear program forward surreptitiously. How? They will eliminate the vast majority of their centerfuges and uranium. They will be subject to inspections that are not occurring today. The uranium mines they have will be subject to continuous monitoring, which doesn’t happen today. How does Iran get closer to the bomb by eliminating most of its fuel, most of its enrichment technology, inspections of its nuclear sites, and monitoring of its only source of uranium? Keep in mind that no deal means that it keeps all its low enriched uranium, keeps and modernizes its enrichment capacity, denies any new inspections, and has its uranium production unchecked by anyone. What, in your view, makes this latter scenario preferable to the former? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/98 "2015-07-15T00:45:48Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > He’s a war hero and you honestly think he’s trying to hurt the US? That’s hyperbolic beyond any reason. Seeing a conspiracy theory like that comment suggests that it wasn’t intended to be taken seriously. Hahahahahahaha. Wow, I bet he even has some Purple Hearts, huh? Maybe a bunch! “Scratches do to count!!” Kerry’s a loathsome human-like figure whose assholeness is only dwarfed but the high opinion he has of himself. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Then you said: > Which suggests you literally think US liberals want Israel to “get fucked” presumably by a nuclear weapon. That the assertion is offensive and hardly worth commenting on. > > No, your post wasn’t meant for intelligent folk as a description of the issues involved. It was a seething utterance with little regard for the facts and reality of the situation. Translation: you disagree with it.:rolleyes: Oh, sorry a couple of little typos caused you so much confusion, but here’s the corrected version so you can benefit from the wisdom it contains: “America is a problem that Iran has repeatedly said it would like to solve by bringing death to all of us. After Israel, of course. And now they have an easier road to acquiring the means to carry out their desires.” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/99 "2015-07-15T00:52:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Hahahahahahaha. Wow, I bet he even has some Purple Hearts, huh? Maybe a bunch! “Scratches do to count!!” Kerry’s a loathsome human-like figure whose assholeness is only dwarfed but the high opinion he has of himself. So you literally do think he sat there and said, _“How can I hurt the US with this deal… I could push for a better agreement, but you know, we just don’t deserve it.”_ And then, he, I presume, twirled a long set of mustaches that only you can see. He’s a war hero, get over it. Support the troops. > [@](#): > > Translation: you disagree with it.:rolleyes: I disagree with utter partisan drivel asserted as truth. You said, liberals, a group that includes me, want Israel to be nuked. That’s not true. It’s a false thing. I don’t even want Texas to be nuked. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Oh, sorry a couple of little typos caused you so much confusion, but here’s the corrected version so you can benefit from the wisdom it contains: > > “America is a problem that Iran has repeatedly said it would like to solve by bringing death to all of us. After Israel, of course. And now they have an easier road to acquiring the means to carry out their desires.” It’s still nonsense. Just better spelled. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128/100 "2015-07-15T00:52:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How? They will eliminate the vast majority of their centerfuges and uranium. They will be subject to inspections that are not occurring today. The uranium mines they have will be subject to continuous monitoring, which doesn’t happen today. > > How does Iran get closer to the bomb by eliminating most of its fuel, most of its enrichment technology, inspections of its nuclear sites, and monitoring of its only source of uranium? > > Keep in mind that no deal means that it keeps all its low enriched uranium, keeps and modernizes its enrichment capacity, denies any new inspections, and has its uranium production unchecked by anyone. What, in your view, makes this latter scenario preferable to the former? Because I believe them when they say that they want to destroy Israel and America. If that was you’re goal, do you think you’d be tripped up by lying? Iran is a big country. We cannot go where we want when we want to inspect. And do you think that Iran at this very moment has no place where they will continue work surreptitiously? What was working was the sanctions. We should have dialed them up, not down. Also, this really isolates Israel, especially should they feel the need to act against Iran. Like I said, I’m repeatedly amazed how people are so content to fuck over Israel. As if it’s not enough to be a tiny country surrounded by those who thing you should be obliterated from the face of the earth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nuclear-deal-with-iran/725128.md?page=6)